LLM GUIDE Blogs
REFLECTIONS: One year after completing my LL.M
By droit.est.philosophie in George Washington's LLM in International Law on May 9, 2008
Dear Readers,ONE YEAR LATER I have been emailed by so many blog-readers lately that I am inspired to add one more post. I will begin this post by attempting to answer the one question that more readers have asked me than any other: "was it worth it?" Then I will turn to the second most-asked question: "what have you been doing since you graduated?"Was the LL.M. worth it?Yes, in every possible way- it was worth it for me. Not only did I attain an advanced degree from one of the finest law schools in the world, write a thesis that is soon to be published, make connections and friends with people from all around the world, but the degree paid for itself in less than a year. I know it's hard to believe that the $50,000+ I took out in loans for the GW LL.M. paid itself off in less than a year, but its true thanks to the opportunities that the District of Columbia (Washington DC) has to offer for legal professionals.When trying to determine whether to do the LL.M. I kept thinking back to something one of my J.D. professors said. "Take the Risk!" was the exact phrase, I can't exactly remember the context of her saying the phrase but it has reverberated in my mind over and over in every opportunity that has presented itself since that time. I offer the same advice to anyone who stumbles on this post "Take the Risk!" What have I been doing since graduation? Well, immediately after graduation I began my bar review studies. The previous year I passed the NC bar so I already knew what I would have to do to pass the Virginia Bar Exam. I set a study schedule as follows, working Monday through Saturday with Sundays off:6:00am wake up; 6am-7am coffee and breakfast; 7am-12pm do practice Multistate questions; 12pm-2pm exercise; 2pm-3pm shower and break time; 3pm-6pm study for the essay portion; 6pm-8pm or so do research for my part-time jobWithin one week of taking the Virginia Bar Exam I was offered a temp-job at a large DC law firm doing primarily review for a huge international antitrust case. This temp job lasted almost eight months. It was grueling; I worked literally 70-80 hour work weeks, and even did one 100 hour work week. Amidst the blur that was these eight months, I remember in mid-October I found out that I passed the Virginia bar and was waived into the District of Columbia Bar (by my scores on NC bar from the previous year) but was too busy and making too much money to justify applying for jobs in Virginia at that time.Upon the completion of the above contract, I applied for jobs and started interviewing. I must have had over a fifteen interviews and a handful of offers over the coming months. While going through this extended interview process, I took on another temp-job at a different large DC firm. This one was regarding an acquisition of a telecommunications company and only lasted six weeks. It paid a little less and the hours were just as long, so I was quite happy for the short contract.After the acquisition contract ended, I took on one more contract (temp-job) with the first large DC firm I worked with. It was another antitrust case and lasted a couple of months. While employed there, I finally accepted a position as a part-time associate at a boutique Virginia law firm, and then a part-time attorney position also with a DC firm. At this point in time, I'm litigating in court in Virginia for the Virginia firm and doing research for the firm in DC simultaneously. Outside of work, I have been very active in the DC legal and trade community. I've been attending many section events, organization meetings in DC and VA, and networking events. By the way, having the LL.M. doesn't hurt for social networking either.All of this while trying to maintain a positive social and personal life. It's not easy, and I'm often working late into the night...
As always, any blog-readers out there, feel free to email me with any questions about GW. It may take some time, but I will respond to you.
Maybe I will post again next year...good luck with your journey...
droit
For Students from India planning to do a LLM from UK
By prashbez in For Indian Students planning to do a LLM from UK on Apr 30, 2008
Hi
I've been posting on this site for quite some time now and I finally took Mr. India's suggestion and decided to combine whatever information I have gathered (after extensive research) about doing an LLM from UK into one blog. I hope this blog helps the Indian students in taking the right decisions on doing an LLM and also becoming aware of how things stand in general. The purpose of the blog is not to discourage Indian students but to make them aware of the facts so that they can take the right decision on going for the LLM or not and how to fund their studies.
I've obtained admission for the 2008-2009 LLM in a number of Universities in UK and will probably go for the LLM but my reasons for doing the LLM are not really from the perspective of a job in the UK.
FYI, I have 10 years of work ex in India and my experience has been very wide and general ranging from litigation to corporate/ transactional work in law firms to working with MNC's and running my own law firm. I am now concentrating on corporate/ transactional work.
1. CONDITIONAL ADMISSIONS (Requirement of English Language tests):
I got a conditional offer from a college in London and had to submit my TOEFL/ IELTS scores to get an unconditional offer. Other Universities have given me an unconditional offer.
I spoke to the London college a few days back and informed them that I had studied all throughout in English. After speaking with me, they informed me that if I submitted a Certificate from my University where I did my LLB stating that I studied the LLB in English, they would waive the TOEFL/ IELTS for me and give me unconditional admission. Maybe others who have studied all throughout in English and have to fulfill the English language condition can make a similar request to the colleges where they have received conditional admission.
2. JOB PROSPECTS IN UK AFTER THE LLM:
2.1 The UK law firms really don't care if you have a LLM or not. Their hiring decision is not made on the basis of the LLM but on the basis of the LLB and your relevant work experience. By relevant work experience I mean a specialized work experience which is related to the law firm's areas of expertise. Unlike India where you need a more generalized experience in my view and sometimes in a smaller law firm you're dealing with various areas of law, in UK your experience is more specialized. There's no point in having a general kind of work ex in India if you plan to work outside India. This is feedback that I have received from UK law firms and UK recruitment consultants. In fact not one response from the UK law firms and recruitment consultants has been positive about getting a job in UK after a LLM, for persons with a LLB degree from India especially as the market is also down in the UK at present. The LLM may have more value in other countries like Singapore, Hong Kong etc. but even then you're not sure. Even after significant work experience in India, you would probably start at a Trainee level or at best as a newly qualified solicitor (if you clear the QLTT). Your previous experience in India would be considered to a certain extent but will not be given a very high preference. Another point which I got to know recently is that the more experience you have in India, the less the chances of getting a Trainee position as you would be then be over qualified for a Trainee position. Therefore for persons with more than 6-10 years experience in India, it becomes even more difficult to join a UK law firm in my view.
2.2 Just to give you an example of how tough it is to get a job, there was a friend of mine who did his LLM a few years ago from one of the top UK colleges. Before he went for his LLM he was a salaried partner in one of the big Indian law firms in Delhi. After the LLM he didn't get a job for almost one year despite his 6 years of specialized work ex and finally managed to get a job with a UK law firm after a lot of struggle and after sticking on in UK for a couple of years.
2.3 Consider this point, why would a UK law firm hire you after a LLM, when there are persons applying to them who have done a 3-year LLB degree from UK and also have UK work experience in comparison to Indian work experience or no work experience? Though India is booming right now and foreign law firms are hiring Indian lawyers for their India Practices as well as other practices, but those lawyers are being hired more for their previous work experience than for their LLM. Further only a small percentage of the Indian lawyers who apply for jobs to foreign law firms get them. I personally know some persons from India, who have gotten jobs with foreign law firms without doing a LLM, after about 5-6 years of transactional work, so a LLM is really not that important for getting a job in a foreign law firm.
3. QUALIFYING AS A SOLICITOR OF ENGLAND AND WALES (Please check the SRA website for more up to date info):
My understanding of the SRA Regulations is that if you don't have 2 years work experience in India then in order to qualify as a Solicitor of England and Wales, you'll need to do the LPC/ GDL and a training contract. But if you do have 2 years experience in India then you need to provide the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA) with a letter from your employer certifying your 2 years experience and certain other documents. Once you get a Certificate of Eligibility from the SRA, you can then sit for the Qualified Lawyers Transfer Test (QLTT) in India itself or in UK and clear that to qualify as a Solicitor of England and Wales. For Indian lawyers with a LL.B degree from India, you need to clear the Professional Conduct and Accounts paper and the Principles of Common Law paper (you can get an exemption from this paper if you provide them a Certificate from your Law School stating that you did your LL.B in English). The decision to impose conditions in the Certificate of Eligibility is that of the SRA. The QLTT is not cheap, it'll cost you almost Rs. 80,000/- to Rs. 1,00,000/- and maybe more. But it will help to a certain extent, because after clearing it, you can apply to become a Solicitor of England and Wales. You can check out the QLTT regulations here:
www.sra.org.uk/solicitors/qltt.page
www.sra.org.uk/documents/solicitors/qltt/qltt-expe…
www.sra.org.uk/solicitors/qltt/transfer-regulation…
www.sra.org.uk/documents/solicitors/qltt/qltt-regu…
but please be sure to check the SRA website regularly as the rules may change.
4. MY PERSPECTIVE IF YOU HAVE TO COME BACK TO INDIA AFTER THE LLM:
4.1 From an Indian law firm perspective, the LLM really doesn't help you if you come back to India immediately after the LLM. This has been mentioned to me by the Managing Partner of one of the top 4 law firms in Delhi, India, a Senior Partner from another big law firm in Mumbai and a number of other senior lawyers. If you plan to come back to India or are forced to come back for a job after the LLM, then it's better that you get some work experience before you go for the LLM. In my view, after 3-5 years of work ex in India, the LLM may help a little bit but not much with Indian law firms. Your salary with the Indian law firms will certainly not jump drastically after the LLM. Yes, if you manage to get 4-5 years work ex after your LLM with a law firm in UK and then come back to India, that would certainly help you in the law firms in India.
4.2 In my view, the LLM may have some value for a MNC and a Legal Process Outsourcing Company in India but there also a lot will depend on your previous work experience in India.
5. FINANCING YOUR LLM STUDIES
5.1 If you have a scholarship and only need to take a minimal loan, go by all means. The LLM will add value to you as a person, academically and give you an exposure that you would not get here in India. Do it for yourself and to get more in depth knowledge in subjects of your interest and in an international environment.
5.2 If you're going to take a huge loan and finance your LLM, then you should acquire significant and highly specialized work ex in India to be able to pay off the loan in case you have to come back to India. At a lesser work ex level, it will be very tough to pay off a huge loan especially since your salary in India after the LLM will not increase drastically. I have 10 years work ex in India, so I'm really not worried about getting a job and paying off my loans if I come back to India. My reasons for doing the LLM are definitely not from a UK job perspective although it would be welcome if it happens, for the experience.
5.3 If you're taking a loan and you think you can pay off the loan easily, then go by all means. But don't take a huge loan just from a foreign job perspective cause the risks involved are large. An important point is that a large loan puts a lot of pressure on you and gives you much less flexibility till you pay off the loan.
5.4 Another suggestion is to postpone your admission to the next year and earn some money to finance a major part of your studies/ living costs especially if you have age on your side. J
5.5 Banks in India have the highest rate of interest for an Education Loan unlike the UK and the US. The interest ranges between 12% per annum to about 13.5% per annum and for an amount of Rs. 7.5 lakhs and above most banks require a collateral of similar value and a third party guarantee. Even the housing loans are offered at a lower rate of interest than the education loans. Ha. I would personally prefer the Nationalized banks to the Foreign banks in India. But that's your decision. My calculation of taking a 20 lakhs loan from India banks repayable over 5-7 years is that by the time you repay it, you would be paying back approximately 31 lakhs instead of 20 lakhs. Think about this figure because the repayment starts one year after you finish your course or 6 months after you get a job. The expected EMI on the above loan of 20 lakhs is about Rs. 30000/- per month. This is a huge figure unless you're earning 1.5 to 2 lakhs a month and even then it’s a great pressure on you.
5.6 In my view, if you/ your family can’t finance your studies, minimize the bank loan, even if you have to take one. Apply for all the scholarships available and take soft loans from parents, relatives, friends and well-wishers. This way, you don’t have the pressure of paying an EMI after your course or after you get a job.
6. REASONS FOR DOING THE LLM:
6.1 Do the LLM for the right reasons and not just from the perspective of getting a job in UK. I want to study further and become more specialized in the subjects of my interest and in areas of law where I already have experience in India. That’s the main reason I'm opting to do the LLM after 10 years of work ex in India.
6.2 For those of you planning to do the LLM right after your LLB, my suggestion is to work for some time and get some experience in India. The main reason for my suggestion is that after working for a while, you’ll be very sure about which areas of law really interest you. If you go for the LLM at that stage where you know what you want to specialize in, it will help you much more than if you go without work experience. You might make the wrong decisions about the choice of the LLM or the subjects you choose if you don’t have work experience. Of course if you come from a family background of lawyers, then you can go right after your LLB especially if you plan to work in your family practice. The other advantage of obtaining at least 2 years of work experience in India is that it enables you to try for the QLTT after getting the Certificate of Eligibility from the SRA.
Hope my views above help Indian students wanting to do a LLM from UK. Please conduct your own research on the LLM, job prospects etc. and let me know if there is any information above, which needs to be amended. I’d be happy to receive any comments and any additional information which persons on this forum may have to share.
All the best and Cheers
Prashant,
Delhi, India
First piece of advice: Prepare, prepare, prepare
By Johana in Advice for foreign lawyers coming to the U.S. to get graduate degrees (both LL.M & JD) on Apr 28, 2008
By now, most foreign applicants to LL.M (or JD) programs in the U.S. have heard whether they got accepted into the program(s) they applied to. If that is your case, (and the news was good) congratulations! Getting accepted to an LL.M (or JD) program is an accomplishment in and of itself, and is one that will surely prove to be very rewarding on a number of different levels in the months and years to come.
Now that the first big hurdle has been overcome (you are in after all!), you may be wondering: Now what?
At this stage, many accepted students wonder how to best plan their trip, what they'll need to do once they get to their destinations, etc. Most law schools provide accepted students with comprehensive binders full of information on the school, a listing of available classes, booklets on what the city is like and jam-packed orientation schedules. All of which is very helpful (and greatly appreciated) but often, not nearly enough.
Given that taking a year "leave" from their regular lives and jobs is such a big (and logistically complex) step, most students focus all their energy on what they need to do to physically get to the U.S. (fill out the paperwork, get visas, coordinate flights and initial stay, get an apartment, set-up accounts to have access to their funds, pick what they are going to bring, say goodbye to their friends, etc.). Some even contact their future classmates, in an effort to learn a little bit about who they will be spending the next year with and establish rapport before the get-go.
Most, however, don't think about preparing for the actual coursework and the challenges of learning advanced law in a completely different system (and for many, a completely different language).
Some think about it but feel they don't need to prepare. After all, they are accomplished lawyers in their home countries and did very well during law school the first time around. The fact that they already are stellar lawyers should be an advantage, right? Well, for many that is not necessarily the case. Particularly for lawyers trained under Civil Law (i.e. based on Roman law) due to the big differences between systems.
I speak from experience. As a Colombian lawyer (Colombia's legal system, like most countries', is rooted in Roman Law), I was not expecting the "legal culture shock" I got during my first semester at Northwestern. Although a lot of the substantive concepts were similar and some of the terminology was familiar, the way issues were "spotted" and analyzed was simply completely foreign (and often counter-intuitive) to me. (Even with subjects I taught prior to coming to the U.S.!). At first, I thought there was something wrong with me. Then, I looked around and talked to a number of my fellow foreign classmates, and realized we were all pretty much lost... and making up a system as we plowed on and stayed up late struggling with our reading.
I eventually figured it out, and thankfully, did very well. But it took me (as it takes most of the foreign law students I know and have spoken to over the years) a full semester to "get it."
Because I was coursing the 2-year JD at Northwestern, luckily, I had time to fully take advantage of the time I had left, but to this day I wish I had known what to expect and how to tackle it before my first day of class. I have heard most of my peers (both JD and LL.M) say the same thing, particularly the LL.Ms, since their program lasts only 1 year.
So my first piece of advice for all of you newly admitted students out there (particularly Civil lawyers) is prepare, prepare, prepare. Learn as much as you can about the classes you will be taking, the method of teaching and grading, how to manage case law, how to prepare for class, etc. Contact LL.M alumni from the program you'll be attending and get their take. Read about how the systems differ and how issues are analyzed under each. In sum, get a sense for what the academic experience will be like and what is expected of you before you set foot in your first class.
Cheers and good luck! Johana
*Johana Mantilla Gómez has a JD from Northwestern University & an LL.B from Pontificia Universidad Javeriana. She currently is the main lecturer at LL.M Studio. Her e-mail is johana@llm-studio.com
GW - My Choice!
By shayan in LLM in George Washington University Law School on Apr 21, 2008
Finally, I got the news of my admission. I will go to The George Washington University Law School and I am very happy about this. International and Comparative Law is my favorite and I will concentrate on International Business and Corporate Law. I like the school. It ranks 20 according to the US News and Reports Ranking and its International and Comparative Law program ranks 8 in US.
Washington DC is a very nice place and I specially like its springs. I have been there for some days before during the very nice days of spring. Being the capital of the country makes the city more attractable to the international students who want to get more familiar with the US institutes and governance. GW which a four blocks from the White House puts you in the heart of a place with high political movements. For me it is even better that I would be there during the 2008 presidential election. For example, since Hillary Clinton became a candidate, she had two speeches in GW.
In order to be more prepared, I will participate in the Pre-LLM Program which takes four weeks in Georgetown University. Again that is in DC.
The R-Word and the Job Market for Lawyers
By Maren[LLM GUIDE] in Editor's Blog on Mar 22, 2008
Hi Everyone! Even as the admissions decisions arrive from US and UK law schools, one of the liveliest discussion board threads has been one about the current job market for lawyers and LL.M. graduates. How has the sub-prime crisis, turbulence on the global financial market, and fears over a recession affected the job market for lawyers and graduating LL.M. students?
It's true, there have been widely publicized layoffs at big-league firms lately, but overall assessments of the legal job market depend on who you ask. Some papers are forecasting tough times ahead for lawyers, particularly for firms specializing in finance, mergers, and acquisitions. Others see light at the end of the tunnel, particularly for lawyers who can help out with insolvencies, sub-prime litigation, and the like.
At least these are the media reports coming out of New York and London. Does anybody have an insider view of the job market that awaits LL.M. graduates in these places, as well as other financial hubs like Frankfurt, Hong Kong, Singapore, ...? How bad is it out there?
Good Friends in LLM Guide
By shayan in LLM in George Washington University Law School on Feb 20, 2008
Hi my friends
It is my first time to write here. I have checked this site since four months. I found it really interesting and useful. I posted questions, my friends gave me very brilliant replies which I could not find any where else. In fact, now it is my habit to check the site as I am checking my e-mail every day.
I am not enrolled in US law schools yet, but applied to four. I am waiting and as this saying is popular " The wait is killing." I don't know where I would be admitted, New York, Washington D.C, New Orleans or California. I love to be in New York or Washington, but I should see what happens.
I can not find LLM students from my country (Afghanistan) in this site. Among my friends who are coming to US this year (2008), I am the only one who is studying law. I know studying law in US is difficult, the language and the differece between US legal system (common law) and my country's legal system (civil law+Islamic law) are the two major problems I am afraid of them.
I will write in this blog, and I will change my blog's name, and put name of the school where I be admitted in the coming month. Wish you good luck and happeniss.
New Year and final semester at Duke
By savannah in LLM Duke 2008 Fall Experience on Jan 26, 2008
It has been a lovely christmas and new year at Duke. The exams were aflame and all of the LLMs agreed that the teaching and examining methods are all different from where we are from. I mean, whoever heard of multiple choice like law exams? I never. Also in intellectual property rights we had to find "substantially true" and "substantially false" statements from a number. Then for any wrong answers there were points taken off. It was a lot of guess work, if you ask me. I wonder what the results will be like.
my other paper, structured financial and commercial transactions, it was all true or false multiple choice. there was also an " i dont know" or " i am not sure" choice. it was all crazy. of course all the exams were open book, so that should be comforting to a lot of the LLMs!
my other two papers Business Association and Distintive aspects of US law were all essay open books and i would say there were both ok. all the LLMs had an extra hour to complete the exams unlike their JD counterparts. that was ok.
Right now, it is the final semester and most of us have already settled with the new classes and stuff. the other issue is the New York Job Fair which almost half of the LLMs are interested in. Indeed, this weekend the college is half empty because most people have interviews in New York. I have none, partly because I didnt apply and partly because I am not looking for a New York law firm job. Guys from Europe and Asia all seem to have their hands full. They seem to have so many opportunities in the law firms here in the states. this is mostly because most of these law firms have branches in European and Asian cities. South America too. But woe unto you if you are from Africa! Just kidding! But it is somewhat true.
End of Michaelmas Term!!
By pinkcauldrons in LLM at LSE- 2007-2008. on Dec 8, 2007
Hello there, all fellow LLM students and LLM applicants. Nearly three months of LSE are nearing their end, and its time to look back and ask some familiar questions. Was it what I expected? Do I like it? Is my huge investment in this one year, actually going to be worth it?
Questions that haunted us throughout the application process, and which will probably stay with us until we graduate! Having opted to do this LLM straight out of an undergraduate degree in law (in India), I find the depth of the study in these classes to be quite overwhelming. The reading lists are humungous, and woe betide one who hasnt prepared at least a little, for every class. LSE is a lot of hard work. It is, also, a lot of fun. You can be shut up in your room all day, swotting, or you could do a good balance of both, seeing what London is all about, as well as keeping up to date with your studies. The latter is what I sincerely strive to do, not always with too much success.
There are definite advantages of being at the heart of this fabulous city. I managed a cheap last minute ticket to a beautiful ballet at the royal opera house, yesterday, and only needed to walk for 5 minutes to reach my destination! However, the heart of the city is expensive. Transport and food are ridiculously expensive, here, and it can get very stressful if you are on a shoe-string budget.
That said, the quality of the teaching at the school remains at a very high level. Expect no hand-holding or spoon-feeding. Professors are easily approachable, but if you havent done your bit of reading, you will quickly find yourself in a spot. It is extremely competitive and can be very daunting in the first month, but it does get better with time.
This place depends very much, on how much you put into it. Most professors here are experts in their fields, and there is a lot of opportunity for informal academic banter, provided that you yourself have a good grip over that particular area of law. In fact, I might have got a lot more out of this LLM if I had say, 3 or 4 years of work experience in my specialist area.
It took me a while to get used to the system of teaching out here, which pre-empts that the student already has some level of mastery of the law. A strong foundation in the basics are absolutely necessary, and I will have to put in extra reading time in the holidays if I want to remain in this crazy academic marathon.
The pace is hectic, the place is stunning, and time really does fly away, faster than you can imagine. Is it worth the money? With one-third of the LLM nearing its end, I can say, yes, most probably. It remains to be seen how strong the LSE name is at the workplace, however, and that can be answered only once I graduate.
The Offer by Manchester and The Reactions
By JamesBangkok in From-Bangkok-to-UK on Nov 30, 2007
Nov 26, I got an offer by the University of Manchester . I was kinda shocked and happy at the same time because the offer was made really fast considering that I have just only submitted on Nov 14. It is, in fact, under two weeks. Lucky that there seems to be no deadline of when I should accept it.
Still,I am looking forward to other universities' results. But i dont think I will hear from any of them till the mid of January, or maybe the mid of December fastest.
When I told my friends about this, they had different but all itneresting comments about it. The first guy thought i would like it because it was the location of the UK's Queer as Folk. I have only seen the US version so far but I may try to find some UK version here. The second guy said congratualtions but he hope that I will more offers from places that have bettwe weathe than Manchester. The last guy just simply said "Manchester United"
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