LLM GUIDE Blogs
"Why bother?" asks the Anonymous Lawyer.
By Banana Pie in The LLM experience from an Anonymous Lawyer on Feb 4, 2010
The second semester at UCL is in full throttle. People are getting together study groups and study sessions for the exams in May/June.
However, this post is not about those people: the fair majority of people who do the LLM. This post is about those people who make you go "Why bother?". Since starting at UCL I have been told, been involved in discussions with, or overheard people talking about how LITTLE work they were doing in the LLM. So, you ask me, why do you care? Well, to be quiet honest, I don't. But I feel sorry for those people who did not get a place at UCL and whose place was effectively taken by these people who...well, you really have to question why they are doing the LLM in the first place. Now, also remember, I am older, worked for a number of years and left a well paying job at a top commercial law firm in my home country to do the LLM at UCL. So the following post needs be read from that perspective.
*Today, a friend told me that a friend of hers was not going to any of the classes for a particular company/commercial law paper. When asked by my friend why they had decided not to go to the classes, the person stated that it was easy as they had interned in a firm that had done work in that area of the law. First, while I appreciate that the interning experience is very important, no amount of interning is really going to get you familiar with the theory and the law in detail. Second, why would you waste your money doing an LLM if its so easy? Why didn't you start working straight away (or get made partner)?
*Apparently some people are doing courses they have already done at undergraduate level. Company Law is one very obvious example. When asked why they are doing company law when they had already done it at undergraduate level, they said "its easy" and "I will ace it". I have a couple of problems with doing something you've already done at undergraduate level. First off, why bother doing the LLM if you're not going to do something that challenges you intellectually? Second, why bother spending money on subjects you've already done before? If its to improve your marks from the first time round, I am not sure employers are going to be too impressed unless you score 200% in the exam. Third, employers aren't dumb. They have your academic transcript in front of you. If they see you've done company law at undergrad and then done it at post grad, they are going to wonder why you've done the same thing twice. Are you not up to challenging yourself, they wonder? If you are planning on doing a course of study you've already done at undergrad you better start thinking of why; ... or have plans to ace the exam.
*I know a couple of people who don't go to class because they "can't be bothered". Seriously. I am attend all my classes and I will attend all the tutorials because that is what I paid for. I saved up hard earned cash to do this LLM and I am attending ALL MY classes and tutorials. Further, if I had borrowed money off my parents, relatives, bank I would be more motivated to go to classes and tutorials.
*I have heard a lot of people complain about not being able to get through all the readings and the notes for the lectures. When you ask them why they say its all too much. Then, when you ask them what they got up to over the week and the weekend they say oh, "I went to this bar/club", "Hung out at this event", "Partied with these friends" etc etc. Part of the LLM experience is meeting new people, experiencing the city you live in (London IS really a fantastic city) and having fun. Balance is important. Don't forget why you are doing the LLM.
*A lot of people complain about how long the lectures are. In some classes, we don't even get a break because of the volume of material we have to get through. Some people in the lectures ask for a break because they can't concentrate for "that long". Lectures are only 2 hours long. And a fair majority of people only have them four times a week. If you can't handle a 2 hour lecture in one day, I am not sure whether you can handle taking notes and listening in an 8+ hour client meeting, commercial negotiations that go on all night or in court all day.
Like I said, my post relates to only a small proportion of people at UCL doing the LLM. The majority of us at UCL are all hard working, intellectual and want to do well in exams. I suppose the purpose of the post relates to my first post: to make those people considering doing the LLM for the wrong reasons to consider whether an LLM is really a worthwhile spend. If not, then you could give your place to someone who really wants it and who will make full use of it.
E-mail I wrote to my Professors -- UPDATED
By michaelcorleone in Columbia University - Class of 2010 on Feb 1, 2010
Unfortunately, this is an email that I've had to send to some of my professors:
* * * * * * * * * * *
Dear Professor,
I was wondering if it would be possible for you to provide me some feedback on my final exam? I would appreciate if you could give me feedback on if my answers addressed the question in the exam and the manner of presentation of my answers.
I am requesting for feedback, primarily to improve my exam-taking and presentation skills, and secondarily, because I felt that I may have disappointed you with my performance in the exam, and led you to think that I did not take away much from your lectures and class discussions! I hope this is not the case because I always enjoyed class discussion and I always tried to be prepared as much as I could for class and the exam.
I would be grateful for any comments that you may have.
Respectfully,
michaelcorleone
-----------------------UPDATE-----------------------
After consulting with professors, I wish I could give you a list of pointers that will magically help you with grades. Unfortunately I cannot. What I discovered that Prof. Cafe was actually generous with the B he gave me. He went through the exam with me and I didn't really hit anything.
But Prof. Dosh was a bit arbitrary with my B. He wanted to find things in my answers that were not really in the question. The question was: Are Kant and collective security compatible or not, and why? So I thought that one should pick one side and argue. He said he actually expected arguments for both. Huh? The other was, what are the hard law and soft law aspects of the Constitution. He said I should have analyzed it using a different framework. Huh?
Still, discussing with them was a useful exercise. I now know how to take on a statute based exam (memorize the code!!!!) and Prof. Dosh was kind enough to say that overall, my performance was good, and he would write me a recommendation if I ever needed him to.
Well, we will see how this all works out in the job hunt. Weekly visits with the career office is helping me. It takes a lot of time! Almost like a completely separate class on its own. Plus, I may have taken too many classes this sem!
Spring break: WHERE ARE YOU?!
Classes in Spring Semester
By michaelcorleone in Columbia University - Class of 2010 on Jan 22, 2010
Finals last fall semester was really intense. I had to write a 25-30 page paper for my seminar in International Commercial Transactions, two papers for Law in the Internet Society, an in-class open book exam for Corporations and Securities, and an 8 hour take home final for Global Constitutionalism.
Let me tell you that was grueling. After going through that, I had to fly back home and I made a pact not to drink anything non-alcoholic throughout the flight. I had to get wasted!!!!!
So after spending the holiday back home, I'm back to the daily grind.
Initially I started out with this line-up:
-Secured Transactions
-Corporate Reorganization and Bankruptcy - Harveay Miller
-Mergers & Acquisitions
-International Banking & Financial Law seminar
-Seminar in Legal Aspects of US Foreign Economic Policy.
I ended up with the following:
1. Bankruptcy Law - Ed Morisoon (I dropped Miller's class because he came in class on day one and said we would be discussing current events, and that the book and the materials would be just for our reference. I didn't like that. I'm sure that other people might appreciate that but I'm really more academic in orientation, really after the theories. Morisoon's class is great in this regard)
I also dropped Secured Transactions because I realized that a mortgage is mortgage whether it's in the U.S. or in Congo, it's all the same basically. Plus we would go over the fundamentals of SecTrans in Bankruptcy anyway.
But as of now, I'm still liking Armor more than Morisoon (more on this below). Morisoon has everyone on call every day! He hasn't called me yet, but there's pressure to read in this class and to follow where the discussion is, in case prof will suddenly call on you. So I can't relax and take good notes in this class!
2. Mergers & Acquisitions - Jefff Gordone - John Armor as visiting professor taught Corporations and basically ruined all other teachers for me. Armor was completely organized, spoke very clearly, had great powerpoint, had on-call panels, relaxing atmosphere, fascinating take on corporations. Gordone isn't going to come close, but he's a renowned scholar and it would be a shame not to take this class with him. So far, it's been interesting.
3. Seminar on US Foreign Economic Policy - class is with Ambassador Ritchard Gartner. I'm really excited for this class. He sets his expectations really high and all of us (21 in his class) were handpicked from more than 70 people who wanted to take the class, based on expertise, diverse backgrounds, etc. He's going to have guest lecturer (whom we will meet in the professor's home). After the introductory sessions, it will basically be class presentations, but structured in a way that the class is a bilateral advisory committee to President Barrack and we are formulating recommendations for the President to adopt in 21 different fields. Really looking forward to doing my report, and listening to the reports of my classmates. We'll be covering a lot of ground in this class, hope that I can keep up!
4. International Banking & Financial Law - so far, my favorite class this semester. the professors are very clear lecturers, no nonsense, direct to the point. I've also always been fascinated by banking law. Professors Courides and Li are practitioners, but they have a good tandem.
5. International Investment Law and Arbitration - professor Beck, met him in the second class. he let me in the class after I wrote him and begged him for me to let me take the class. I'm thinking the materials are good, and it's a good chance to study and learn about investment treaties and investment arbitration because I've never had the chance to study it before or do any sort of practice on this field. Beck's clearly very knowledgeable (PhD from the Netherlands, Harvard LLM) and he sort of brings a lot to the class, not just investment law! A while ago we were discussing international law, ICJ, investment, US foreign policy, ASEAN, all sorts of different things. He's not very organized in his discussion though, but I guess I can live with that.
It's been rough getting over jet-lag, and now I have to start with the job hunt as well! I didn't get any interviews through the Columbia job fair (also because my target firms weren't participating, mainly firms in Hong Kong and Singapore) so I will have to look on my own. Guys -- any leads?
Good luck for the applicants! I know the agony of waiting that you must be feeling right now.
Make sure you're doing it for the right reasons
By Banana Pie in The LLM experience from an Anonymous Lawyer on Jan 12, 2010
Hey Everyone,
I have been a long time follower of LLM guide since I decided to do my LLM in 2008. So I've decided to give something back to the LLM Guide community by sharing some of my thoughts and experiences of the LLM from the perspective of someone who had worked for a number of years as a lawyer.
The LLM was always something I wanted to do. But it meant that I had to take a "break" in the climb up the commercial law firm hierarchy. However the LLM experience is definitely worth it.
I am currently undertaking the LLM at UCL with a international commercial specialisation. I have to say that I am loving the experience. UCL is a fantastic university. I love the courses I am doing. They have opened my eyes to new theories and perspectives that I believe will only enhance my practical experience and knowledge.
But not everything was wonderful and some things were...well disappointing. Where you have paid out of your own pocket (and borrowed) and quit your nice cushy job for the experience any disappointment is hard to bear. But the key thing is that if you are here for the right reasons, you will get over it and make the best out of it.
So here are my thoughts and experiences of the LLM at UCL so far:
*I expected the class sizes for the LLM to be much smaller (max 20 people) than what I had experienced at undergraduate level (100 plus people). A smaller class size means intellectual discussion of the ideas and topics covered in the course. However, the reality is that the total number of people taking the LLM at UCL for 2009-10 is 450 people (including about 50 part timers). This has meant that in the courses I am taking (commercial courses) there are usually between 50 to 100 people in a class, which is not conducive to intellectual debate or discussion. In fact it encourages intellectual inertia.
*Because of the class sizes, the lectures are run as undergraduate lectures with you (the student) listening and the Professor talking at you. If your Professor is good he/she will try and encourage some discussion and debate. If your Professor is not so good, he/she will read from the powerpoint slides that you had to print out and take to class.
*Pick papers you're interested in and that will enhance your knowledge and experience. Don't pick papers because you think it will look good on your CV. I know of several people who had to drop out of courses and switch to other courses because they hated the paper so much but were only doing it because they thought it would look good on the CV.
*I expected all if not most of the LLM courses to be "advanced". That is basic legal principles and practices in the commercial world would be assumed or covered in one introductory lecture and the rest of the course will cover the topics in the course in more detail, with application etc. However, a good number of the courses are almost primers in the area rather than an advanced course of study. Wisely use the 2 weeks you have to choose your courses and find out which ones are actually going to add to your knowledge and experience and which ones won't.
*If you're thinking about doing the LLM because you think you can get a job in London after wards, think again. At a careers law fair at UCL a friend of mine was bluntly told by a number of law firms that there no jobs for people with legal work experience and that they would have been better off staying in their home country. If they really wanted to work in London as a lawyer they had to start again and complete a training contract. To be honest, I am not sure whether you would have to start again at training contract level if you've got a decent number of years work experience. But, getting a job in London is not going to be easy and the LLM won't be the golden ticket into a job no matter which university you're from.
*I struggled to do the readings before the lectures. Not because they were hard or too much (well yes they were too much: the readings lists are massive!) but because I had no idea why I was reading what I was reading. After chatting to my personal tutor I started to do some of the readings before class (for example the textbook chapter) and then the rest after the lecture. This for me made more sense. In the work context, you would never read up on the law before you met a client (ok you'd do some background reading from a textbook- at most). You did the intensive research/reading after you had found out what the issue was.
So, those are my thoughts and experiences so far. Despite what appears to be a whole list of negatives, I am truly loving my LLM experience at UCL. I have made a great bunch of friends, met some great people and I have genuinely learnt a lot (with the second semester still to go!). I think despite all the negatives, because I really wanted to do the LLM to learn, grow my knowledge and add to my experiences, the negatives really became "non issues".
So, the moral of the story: If you're doing the LLM for the right reasons then you will have the best and most unforgettable experience.
Finally winding down
By LLM85 in LLM85 KCL on Dec 14, 2009
I havn't put up a post for ages!!!! My apologies as the workload just cranked up and I really don't want to get left behind. But everything is shutting down for the Christmas break so i have a little bit more free time on my hands.
Firstly i'll deal with the non-teaching aspect of the course. King's recently hosted its annual law fair over two days which i feel was very well attended by the law firms with a good selection of firms being represented. But to be honest King's has such a wealth of big firms vying to do events with them that the law fair was really just the tip of the iceberg.
I don't know if this is just me, but law fairs are not of very much help to me these days or maybe I am just bored of hearing the same thing from these Graduate Recruiters all the time. And when I do ask them a question that I really want or need the answer to, chances are they don't know the answer and they ask me to send an e-mail which is 50/50 as to whether they will reply.
Back to the admin, I thought those little gliches would be sorted out by now but still there are problems. Trying to select our research essay titles and dissertations was a nightmare and one of my friends has had one of her half-modules cancelled (this only happened a week and a half ago!). As much as I am growing to love this uni, this kind of confusion and disappointing admin has got to be sorted. Some people are paying over £10 000 to do an LLM at King's and for that kind of money you expect a higher standard (this is not directed at the teaching which is OUTSTANDING!!!!)
I will say this though, if you want to do your LLM to have a better chance of securing a training contract with an international firm, it is very much to your advantage to be already qualified in your own country esp if that country is China, India, Brazil, USA... well actually it depends on the firm, as some firms a looking for a lot of Eastern European qualified lawyers as well. This is not to say that this will not change as soon as some other country comes into commercial fashion but that is what it sounds like to me at the moment.
Also if you are a UK law undergrad and you want to do an LLM, seriously think about the timing of the degree as law firms will be recruiting 2 years in advance so chances are you are going to have a lot of time to kill after doing your LPC. But thats no biggie really.
The teaching is still great and I am looking forward to learning from a whole host of new lecturers next semester as well. Things are going well on the education front, and I think that next semester will continue in the same vein.
Merry Christmas all xxx
Seventh week at UCL - Finally its time to submit my research proposal
By PUCCA in UCL LLM 2009/2010 experience. Right from the beginning until graduation! on Nov 19, 2009
Well everything its still good since last time i wrote which was in week 2.
Not much to say apart from doing a lot of reading (believe me the reading lists are insane) and going to class. I must say i havent been out much but because my fellow llm classmates dont plan activities cause they do but because i have been sick ever since i got here. I had travelled and stayed in cold countries before for a long time but now im older (26 years old hehe) and apparently it takes longer for me to get used to this cold weather (cold weatherm plus rain plus strong wind is a terrible combination here in London). And well my nose has been clogged for almost a month and a half and the only time its not clogged is when i use a very strong nasal spray that usually makes me feel quite sick because i overdose all the time because i get desperated because i want to breath through my nose specially at night cause otherwise when i wake up my throat is so dry and hurt due to all the air that comes through my open mouth during the night and believe the pain is unbearable. Apart from that ive been having headaches and i totally don like that. So the end of the story is that i have to undergo a special procedure when i go back to my country that will help me with this problem (apparently is an injection on my nose or something like that im sure i will totally hate but its better than feeling the way i feel right now)
but well enough with my health problems u are not interested in that!!! but i do encourage you to register with he doctor as soon as you get to London because like me i needed to see the doctor almost the second week i got here and it could happen to you too (I REALLY HOPE IT DOESNT) but you never know,,so its better so be safe and register on time in case u get sick.
On 20 November we all have to submit our research proposal (maximum 250 words) and well i finished that already and im going to submit it tomorrow to my professor by email which is what they asked us to do. Next week im going to join this professor which will be my supervisor to discuss a little bit more about my dissertation and i guess he will give me some feedback and provide comments on my research proposal,,lets see how that goes
we have to submit our final dissertation topic on 11 December and classes finish on 18 December. After that im going back to my country for the holidays :) ad then coming back to London around 6 January.
I will write again in December when my dissertation topic has been approved or maybe earlier if there is something interesting to let yo know :)
Bidding for Classes for Spring Semester
By michaelcorleone in Columbia University - Class of 2010 on Nov 18, 2009
My bids are below. My ideal line-up is: Banking, Bankruptcy, M&A, Reading the Constitution and US Foreign Economic Policy.
| Choice # | Course | Points | Location/Day-Time | Instructor(s) | Action | ||||
| Primary | S. INTERNATIONAL BANKING & FINANCIAL LAW | |||||||
| L9065, Section 1 | 2.0 |
| P. NICHOLAS KOURIDES, PAUL LEE |
| |||||
| Alternative | ADVANCED CORPORATE LAW: MERGERS & ACQUISITIONS | ||||||||
| L6202, Section 1 | 4.0 |
| JEFFREY GORDON |
| |||||
| Primary | ADVANCED CORPORATE LAW: MERGERS & ACQUISITIONS | |||||||
| L6202, Section 1 | 4.0 |
| JEFFREY GORDON |
| |||||
| Alternative | BANKRUPTCY LAW | ||||||||
| L6536, Section 1 | 4.0 |
| EDWARD MORRISON |
| |||||
| Primary | BANKRUPTCY LAW | |||||||
| L6536, Section 1 | 4.0 |
| EDWARD MORRISON |
| |||||
| Alternative | CORPORATE REORGANIZATION & BANKRUPTCY | ||||||||
| L6233, Section 1 | 3.0 |
| HARVEY MILLER |
| |||||
| Primary | ADVANCED CONSTITUTIONAL LAW: READING THE CONSTITUTION | |||||||
| L6457, Section 1 | 2.0 |
| AKHIL AMAR |
| |||||
| Alternative | ANTITRUST & TRADE REGULATION | ||||||||
| L6293, Section 1 | 3.0 |
| SCOTT HEMPHILL |
| |||||
| Primary | CORPORATE REORGANIZATION & BANKRUPTCY | |||||||
| L6233, Section 1 | 3.0 |
| HARVEY MILLER |
| |||||
| Primary | INTERNATIONAL COMMERCIAL ARBITRATION | |||||||
| L9061, Section 1 | 3.0 |
| THOMAS LEE |
| |||||
| Alternative | ANTITRUST & TRADE REGULATION | ||||||||
| L6293, Section 1 | 3.0 |
| SCOTT HEMPHILL |
| |||||
| Primary | ANTITRUST & TRADE REGULATION | |||||||
| L6293, Section 1 | 3.0 |
| SCOTT HEMPHILL |
| |||||
More FAQs from Applicants
By michaelcorleone in Columbia University - Class of 2010 on Nov 6, 2009
Did you include your transcript and diploma from undergrad in your application?
I INCLUDED MY TRANSCRIPT, BUT NOT MY DIPLOMA.
I'm asking this in line with the TOEFL requirement. Just wondering if there needed to be like official certification that we earned our first law degree entirely in English in an English-speaking country. Or did you take the TOEFL or get a waiver?
I GOT A WAIVER.
There is a strong suggestion to include only two letters of recommendation. Did you follow that suggestion? :)
INITIALLY I SUBMITTED JUST TWO. BUT I LATER IN THE PROCESS (AND THIS WAS AROUND APRIL) GOT A RECOMMENDATION LETTER FROM THE UNITED NATIONS, AND I FORWARDED IT TO THEM. THEY SAID THEY WOULD INCLUDE IT IN MY FILE. (IT WAS SCANNED AND EMAILED TO THEM.)
The Columbia Early Review got back to me and said my application is incomplete as I have not sent them ORIGINAL documents (ie transcripts, diplomas)?! I understood it should be enough with certified copies?
YOU SHOULD CALL THEM UP. I REMEMBER INCLUDING JUST CERTIFIED TRUE COPIES.
Are you enjoying it in CLS?
NO.
KIDDING, YES.
How worthwhile or valuable is the Corporate Law LLM for a US law student? I've heard that for US law students, the Tax LLM is the only LLM worth the time and money and even then only from a select few schools.
--- not really sure. you should take a look at this post from ATL:
http://abovethelaw.com/2008/07/the_value_of_an_llm_degree_rev.php
--- see also the responses in this thread:
http://abovethelaw.com/2008/01/open_thread_on_llm_degrees.php
Does Columbia have an LLM specifically in Business/Corporate Law? From what I have uncovered from my research, I thought they do not.
they do not. there's no specialized LLM in cls.
Did you apply to other schools and were you admitted?
YES, I APPLIED TO OTHER SCHOOLS AND I WAS ADMITTED.
Where are you from?
I’M FROM ASIA.
International Commercial Arbitration
By LLM85 in LLM85 KCL on Nov 5, 2009
Ok so I guess now that I dealt with the admin stuff, i should go into the actual substance of the course and I will start with International Commercial Arbitration merely because it is my favourite module.
The structure of this module is all over the place, we range from having 1 lecturer in a 2 hour lecture to having 3 with an assistant as well. All three of them seem to have different views of the topic and they disagree all the time...its fantastic.
Have you ever been in a lecture where the lecturer is saying the exact same thing that you read in the text book written by him/her (which also just happens to be the recommended text for the course, what a coincidence ?), all you ever get is one view of the subject. This helps no one and just doesn't mirror the reality of the legal scene. Not this module.
Anyway this module is just so interesting and it really sounds like something I would love to do as a career but and there always seems to be a 'but' with law, this is a profession that seems very hard to get into and i keep hearing what seems to be turning into everybody's mantra 'it's really competitive'.
But that does not detract from the actual substance of the module, to be fair there is a lot and i mean A LOT of reading that you have to do by yourself and we never finish covering what we are supposed to in class but hey this is masters right, just suck it up and move on. I do have to make a special mention though, Toby Landau who sort of heads the course this semester is awesome, he really makes you analyse what he is teaching you both theoretically and practically.
Which brings me to one final point that i have about the LLM course at King's in general, as much as i moan and whinge about it one thing that i appreciate above all is that all the lecturers approach the modules from a practical realistic angle. So they will teach you all the heavy theory but then they will qualify it by saying something like you do need to know the theory but in modern practice nobody really refers to this anymore. As far as i am concerned anything that makes my course more relevant works for me.
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