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Columbia vs. U Penn

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eowyn75005

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 26
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sat Feb 04, 2006 06:11 PM
Hi everybody!

I've been admitted to both Columbia University and U Penn. What factors should I take into account in order to choose between these two excellent law schools, considering that i would like to stay in the US for a year or two after completing my degree. I'm interested in commercial law, and commercial and international arbitration.

Many thanks for your help.
Best regards.
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yueping

Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 109
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sat Feb 04, 2006 07:01 PM
When did you get your acceptance from Columbia ?
When was your application complete ?
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rah23

Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 52
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sat Feb 04, 2006 08:26 PM
I would go to Columbia.
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eowyn75005

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 26
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:29 PM
I received my e-mail of admission from Columbia on January 17th and the letter i got several days after was also dated Jauary 17th. My complete file e-mail from Columbia was dated December 8th, 2005.
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fidelio
Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 6
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:11 AM

Unlike Yale, Stanford or Harvard, Columbia reviews application files on a rolling basis, which is clearly the worst admission process possible.
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kem


Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 119
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:12 AM
First of all, my congratulations! If i were in your place , i would choose Columbia,,,,,,,1) More prestigious 2) NY 3) More well-known brand
Regards
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LLM_06

Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 117
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:56 AM

Unlike Yale, Stanford or Harvard, Columbia reviews application files on a rolling basis, which is clearly the worst admission process possible.


"On a rolling basis"??? You mean they review the files in the order in which they are completed? If this information is accurate, it would mean that anyone who got an e-mail confirming completeness before December 8th and has not yet received an answer is rejected (since someone got an acceptance with a completeness notification on that date)?

[Edited 05 Feb 2006 by LLM_06]
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eowyn75005

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 26
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:09 PM
Thank you Kem.

I agree with you on what you said about Columbia, but Penn has also some good points: 1) Ivy League School; 2) possibility of taking some courses at Wharton 3) a smaller program than Columbia 4) cheaper life than in NY...don't you think that these factors should also be taken into account?

I am wondering whether there is a real difference between these two schools when we consider the chances of finding a job in the US for a year after completing the LLL? Do you think it would be easier with a diploma from Columbia?

Regards.
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fg

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 329
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sun Feb 05, 2006 02:19 PM
I suggest checking the top law firm websites and seeing where the foreign Associates went to school. My sense is that you would be better off going to Columbia.
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yueping

Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 109
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sun Feb 05, 2006 02:58 PM
Penn also has quite a number of advantages like price.
And if you got into the Wharton/Penn program, it is much better than Columbia IMO.
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ba

Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 9
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sat Mar 04, 2006 05:22 AM
Having done LLMs in both the United States and the United Kingdom. These are my rankings for the best LLM programs in terms of prestige and job prospects. The first five is in no particular order:

(1) Oxford
(2) Cambridge
(3) Columbia
(4) Harvard
(5) Stanford
(6) NYU
(7) Georgetown
(8) Penn
(9) California-Berkley
(10) LSE
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Gevurah

Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 59
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sat Mar 04, 2006 06:29 AM
no doubt cls esp. when you are thinking of job prospects...how many courses do yu expect from wharton in just one year llm course when yu are busy keeping up with law courses and maybe preparing for bar exam...
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ba

Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 9
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sat Mar 04, 2006 08:09 AM
oops I forgot Yale. LSE and Cal tied for 10th
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Yps

Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 64
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sat Mar 04, 2006 09:49 AM
Hi eowyn,

from my point of view, with respect to your interests Penn is the better choice. First of all, Penn is more business prone than Columbia. I believe that Columbia has its strengths more in the international law area. Secondly, Penn's program is significantly smaller (80 vs. 200 at CLS). Thus, the "cash-cow" factor might be of lower importance which results in better contacts with the faculty and other students. Furthermore, you may take courses at Wharton Business School. In addition, you live in a nice city with affordable living conditions and you still have every chance to visit NY.
The only thing about Penn is its lower ranking - so what? If you do not want to stay in the US forever, this is not of high importance.
Personally, I am a little sick by the "ranking game". You should have a look at the faculty and judge by what you find in terms of course variety and professors doing research you are interested in.

Regards,

Yps.
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JGMS

Joined: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 18
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sat Mar 04, 2006 07:21 PM
slightly off the issue, sorry- but have many people heard back from Columbia? i got an email saying they had received my application on 19 january. i ask because i have two other offers so even if columbia come back in the negative, at least i could make a proper decision. thanks
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JGMS

Joined: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 18
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sat Mar 04, 2006 07:30 PM
Having done LLMs in both the United States and the United Kingdom. These are my rankings for the best LLM programs in terms of prestige and job prospects. The first five is in no particular order:

(1) Oxford
(2) Cambridge
(3) Columbia
(4) Harvard
(5) Stanford
(6) NYU
(7) Georgetown
(8) Penn
(9) California-Berkley
(10) LSE


would you actually put oxford and cambridge and lse in with the american colleges? im irish so i know how highly regarded at least the first two are (for law) but i would not have thought they those colleges would be so highly regarded in the States? would they stand to you in terms of getting a job in the States?

[Edited 04 Mar 2006 by JGMS]
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ba

Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 9
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:59 PM
Definately not. I was looking at worldwide job prospects. If you want to work in the United States, it is definately better to do an LLM in the US and do not even think about doing the LLM in the UK unless you are an American citizen.

People always ask me which system is better. What I always tell them is that a US LLM prepares you better to work in the US than the UK LLM prepares you to work in the UK, however the UK LLM prepares you much better to work around the world as the LLMs in the UK often examine how the law is in different countries (mostly other common law countries and the EU) while the LLMs in the US are taught with the JDs and deal with US Federal and State law.

If you do an LLM in Cambridge, I believe it is much easier to get a job in the UK if you come from a common law background than for example an LLM from Columbia would help you in the US. I had two friends who were the top law students in my system. One went to Columbia, the other went to Cambridge, the person who went to Cambridge got a job within two months of graduating while the person who went to Columbia took about a year and ended up having to do the JD. However the salary for the Columbia student was definately much higher than the Cambridge grad. In other words good things will come to those who wait.
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LLM_06

Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 117
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sun Mar 05, 2006 01:43 PM
Having done LLMs in both the United States and the United Kingdom. These are my rankings for the best LLM programs in terms of prestige and job prospects. The first five is in no particular order:

(1) Oxford
(2) Cambridge
(3) Columbia
(4) Harvard
(5) Stanford
(6) NYU
(7) Georgetown
(8) Penn
(9) California-Berkley
(10) LSE


I can’t comment on job prospects, but concerning prestige, I would put Chicago on that list for sure.
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yueping

Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 109
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sun Mar 05, 2006 03:37 PM
Interesting post ba.

Would you recommend a LLM in USA or in UK for a law student trained in a civil law system ?

Definately not. I was looking at worldwide job prospects. If you want to work in the United States, it is definately better to do an LLM in the US and do not even think about doing the LLM in the UK unless you are an American citizen.

People always ask me which system is better. What I always tell them is that a US LLM prepares you better to work in the US than the UK LLM prepares you to work in the UK, however the UK LLM prepares you much better to work around the world as the LLMs in the UK often examine how the law is in different countries (mostly other common law countries and the EU) while the LLMs in the US are taught with the JDs and deal with US Federal and State law.

If you do an LLM in Cambridge, I believe it is much easier to get a job in the UK if you come from a common law background than for example an LLM from Columbia would help you in the US. I had two friends who were the top law students in my system. One went to Columbia, the other went to Cambridge, the person who went to Cambridge got a job within two months of graduating while the person who went to Columbia took about a year and ended up having to do the JD. However the salary for the Columbia student was definately much higher than the Cambridge grad. In other words good things will come to those who wait.
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ba

Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 9
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sun Mar 05, 2006 04:09 PM
It depends on the civil law system you are from. If you are from Latin America, you should do the LLM in the US, if you are from Europe and intend to stay there, I would recommend the UK especially because comparative law teaching is so good in the UK.

The US is an excellent place to study, but the fact remains a job is not guaranteed when you finish plus the costs are very high (I was a Fulbright LLM student so I had to go back home, however alot of my classmates took a long while to get jobs) basically a person who does an LLM in the UK who is from Europe will get a job once they are finished (no work permit problems) once they go to a top 5 program in the UK this is not the same for the US where the large law firms often expressly or implicity insist on you eventually doing the JD after the LLM, I know it has happened to a number of people I know.

The University of Chicago is an excellent program but the fact is like in all LLM programs in the US you have to carefully choose your courses. Duke is also a good program as well as Yale but Yale is more for people who are committed to law teaching.
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masteroflaws2007


Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 149
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sun Mar 05, 2006 05:16 PM
Hey Yeuping

"....And if you got into the Wharton/Penn program, it is much better than Columbia IMO."

just curious what does "IMO" stand for?
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yueping

Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 109
Columbia vs. U Penn
Sun Mar 05, 2006 05:38 PM
I'm from Europe.

IMO stands for "in my opinion"

[Edited 05 Mar 2006 by yueping]
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masteroflaws2007


Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 149
Columbia vs. U Penn
Mon Mar 06, 2006 07:27 PM
I am from Asia

IMO, IMO is a good was of saying it - short & cryptic!
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ColumbiaJoe
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 67
Columbia vs. U Penn
Mon Mar 06, 2006 07:38 PM
I know very little about U Penn and so I offer no opinion on which is better. I suggest, however, that you research the professors. For international arbitration, Columbia offers Professors Bermann, Smit and Garro. For corporate law, Columbia offers (among others) Professors Coffee, Goldschmid, and Milhaupt.
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blogggs

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 10
Columbia vs. U Penn
Tue Mar 07, 2006 03:39 AM
Hi I just posted this on another thread:

I hope none of you makes the "mistake" of going to Penn with a Columbia admissions because the LL.M. class is smaller or because of Wharton. If you want Wharton get an MBA not an LL.M. and as far as a business oriented law school NO school beats Columbia. Its the only thing they care about. (and BTW Columbia Business School is no joke either and since you are coming from the higher ranked school (law) in the University they don t treat you like an act of charity)

Now as regards LL.M with a concentration in securities/corporate law these are my thoughts which I hope you find of use:

I do believe that for corporate law the 2 best programs are Harvard and Columbia. In Harvard you have Bebchuk, Ferrel, Powell, Roe and a greater number of the leading edge corporate academics than anywhere else.

In Columbia, take a look at the leading casebooksin US Law. These are the books you are going to spend HOURS AND HOURS READING AND WORKING ON:
securities: coffee & seligmann. Coffee, he s in Columbia
corporations: Coffee and Eisenberg ie the authors of 2 out of the 3 classic corporations books teach at Columbia,
law and finance of corporate acquisitions (IE the M&A course )(06 Ed): Gordon and Gilson (2 of 3),
Antitrust: Goldschmid.
Same in Administrative Law.
In Bankruptcy you actually get the lawyers who represented Enron to teach you bankruptcy.

What more can you say? If you want to study US corporate or securities law I find it hard to believe that any school is going to beat Columbia. Plus you are in NY and in a calm part of it in case the big city sounds scary.

I hope you make informed decisions

Good luck and enjoy your LL.M. wherever you end up going. Its a great year.
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