http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659 en Columbia vs. U Penn - LLM GUIDE Discussion Board Sat, 04 Feb 2006 20:11:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#10659 Hi everybody! I've been admitted to both Columbia University and U Penn. What factors should I take into account in order to choose between these two excellent law schools, considering that i would like to stay in the US for a year or two after completing my degree. I'm interested in commercial law, and commercial and international arbitration. Many thanks for your help. Best regards. Sat, 04 Feb 2006 21:01:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#10662 When did you get your acceptance from Columbia ? When was your application complete ? Sat, 04 Feb 2006 22:26:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#10667 I would go to Columbia. Sun, 05 Feb 2006 01:29:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#10671 I received my e-mail of admission from Columbia on January 17th and the letter i got several days after was also dated Jauary 17th. My complete file e-mail from Columbia was dated December 8th, 2005. Sun, 05 Feb 2006 02:11:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#10672 Unlike Yale, Stanford or Harvard, Columbia reviews application files on a rolling basis, which is clearly the worst admission process possible. Sun, 05 Feb 2006 02:12:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#10673 First of all, my congratulations! If i were in your place , i would choose Columbia,,,,,,,1) More prestigious 2) NY 3) More well-known brand Regards Sun, 05 Feb 2006 02:56:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#10674 Unlike Yale, Stanford or Harvard, Columbia reviews application files on a rolling basis, which is clearly the worst admission process possible. "On a rolling basis"??? You mean they review the files in the order in which they are completed? If this information is accurate, it would mean that anyone who got an e-mail confirming completeness before December 8th and has not yet received an answer is rejected (since someone got an acceptance with a completeness notification on that date)? Sun, 05 Feb 2006 14:09:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#10680 Thank you Kem. I agree with you on what you said about Columbia, but Penn has also some good points: 1) Ivy League School; 2) possibility of taking some courses at Wharton 3) a smaller program than Columbia 4) cheaper life than in NY...don't you think that these factors should also be taken into account? I am wondering whether there is a real difference between these two schools when we consider the chances of finding a job in the US for a year after completing the LLL? Do you think it would be easier with a diploma from Columbia? Regards. Sun, 05 Feb 2006 16:19:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#10687 I suggest checking the top law firm websites and seeing where the foreign Associates went to school. My sense is that you would be better off going to Columbia. Sun, 05 Feb 2006 16:58:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#10688 Penn also has quite a number of advantages like price. And if you got into the Wharton/Penn program, it is much better than Columbia IMO. Sat, 04 Mar 2006 07:22:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#11872 Having done LLMs in both the United States and the United Kingdom. These are my rankings for the best LLM programs in terms of prestige and job prospects. The first five is in no particular order: (1) Oxford (2) Cambridge (3) Columbia (4) Harvard (5) Stanford (6) NYU (7) Georgetown (8) Penn (9) California-Berkley (10) LSE Sat, 04 Mar 2006 08:29:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#11875 no doubt cls esp. when you are thinking of job prospects...how many courses do yu expect from wharton in just one year llm course when yu are busy keeping up with law courses and maybe preparing for bar exam... Sat, 04 Mar 2006 10:09:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#11876 oops I forgot Yale. LSE and Cal tied for 10th Sat, 04 Mar 2006 11:49:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#11877 Hi eowyn, from my point of view, with respect to your interests Penn is the better choice. First of all, Penn is more business prone than Columbia. I believe that Columbia has its strengths more in the international law area. Secondly, Penn's program is significantly smaller (80 vs. 200 at CLS). Thus, the "cash-cow" factor might be of lower importance which results in better contacts with the faculty and other students. Furthermore, you may take courses at Wharton Business School. In addition, you live in a nice city with affordable living conditions and you still have every chance to visit NY. The only thing about Penn is its lower ranking - so what? If you do not want to stay in the US forever, this is not of high importance. Personally, I am a little sick by the "ranking game". You should have a look at the faculty and judge by what you find in terms of course variety and professors doing research you are interested in. Regards, Yps. Sat, 04 Mar 2006 21:21:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#11900 slightly off the issue, sorry- but have many people heard back from Columbia? i got an email saying they had received my application on 19 january. i ask because i have two other offers so even if columbia come back in the negative, at least i could make a proper decision. thanks Sat, 04 Mar 2006 21:30:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#11901 Having done LLMs in both the United States and the United Kingdom. These are my rankings for the best LLM programs in terms of prestige and job prospects. The first five is in no particular order: (1) Oxford (2) Cambridge (3) Columbia (4) Harvard (5) Stanford (6) NYU (7) Georgetown (8) Penn (9) California-Berkley (10) LSE would you actually put oxford and cambridge and lse in with the american colleges? im irish so i know how highly regarded at least the first two are (for law) but i would not have thought they those colleges would be so highly regarded in the States? would they stand to you in terms of getting a job in the States? Sun, 05 Mar 2006 01:59:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#11917 Definately not. I was looking at worldwide job prospects. If you want to work in the United States, it is definately better to do an LLM in the US and do not even think about doing the LLM in the UK unless you are an American citizen. People always ask me which system is better. What I always tell them is that a US LLM prepares you better to work in the US than the UK LLM prepares you to work in the UK, however the UK LLM prepares you much better to work around the world as the LLMs in the UK often examine how the law is in different countries (mostly other common law countries and the EU) while the LLMs in the US are taught with the JDs and deal with US Federal and State law. If you do an LLM in Cambridge, I believe it is much easier to get a job in the UK if you come from a common law background than for example an LLM from Columbia would help you in the US. I had two friends who were the top law students in my system. One went to Columbia, the other went to Cambridge, the person who went to Cambridge got a job within two months of graduating while the person who went to Columbia took about a year and ended up having to do the JD. However the salary for the Columbia student was definately much higher than the Cambridge grad. In other words good things will come to those who wait. Sun, 05 Mar 2006 15:43:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#11942 Having done LLMs in both the United States and the United Kingdom. These are my rankings for the best LLM programs in terms of prestige and job prospects. The first five is in no particular order: (1) Oxford (2) Cambridge (3) Columbia (4) Harvard (5) Stanford (6) NYU (7) Georgetown (8) Penn (9) California-Berkley (10) LSE I can’t comment on job prospects, but concerning prestige, I would put Chicago on that list for sure. Sun, 05 Mar 2006 17:37:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#11947 Interesting post ba. Would you recommend a LLM in USA or in UK for a law student trained in a civil law system ? Definately not. I was looking at worldwide job prospects. If you want to work in the United States, it is definately better to do an LLM in the US and do not even think about doing the LLM in the UK unless you are an American citizen. People always ask me which system is better. What I always tell them is that a US LLM prepares you better to work in the US than the UK LLM prepares you to work in the UK, however the UK LLM prepares you much better to work around the world as the LLMs in the UK often examine how the law is in different countries (mostly other common law countries and the EU) while the LLMs in the US are taught with the JDs and deal with US Federal and State law. If you do an LLM in Cambridge, I believe it is much easier to get a job in the UK if you come from a common law background than for example an LLM from Columbia would help you in the US. I had two friends who were the top law students in my system. One went to Columbia, the other went to Cambridge, the person who went to Cambridge got a job within two months of graduating while the person who went to Columbia took about a year and ended up having to do the JD. However the salary for the Columbia student was definately much higher than the Cambridge grad. In other words good things will come to those who wait. Sun, 05 Mar 2006 18:09:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#11948 It depends on the civil law system you are from. If you are from Latin America, you should do the LLM in the US, if you are from Europe and intend to stay there, I would recommend the UK especially because comparative law teaching is so good in the UK. The US is an excellent place to study, but the fact remains a job is not guaranteed when you finish plus the costs are very high (I was a Fulbright LLM student so I had to go back home, however alot of my classmates took a long while to get jobs) basically a person who does an LLM in the UK who is from Europe will get a job once they are finished (no work permit problems) once they go to a top 5 program in the UK this is not the same for the US where the large law firms often expressly or implicity insist on you eventually doing the JD after the LLM, I know it has happened to a number of people I know. The University of Chicago is an excellent program but the fact is like in all LLM programs in the US you have to carefully choose your courses. Duke is also a good program as well as Yale but Yale is more for people who are committed to law teaching. Sun, 05 Mar 2006 19:16:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#11954 Hey Yeuping "....And if you got into the Wharton/Penn program, it is much better than Columbia IMO." just curious what does "IMO" stand for? Sun, 05 Mar 2006 19:38:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#11958 I'm from Europe. IMO stands for "in my opinion" Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:27:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#11996 I am from Asia IMO, IMO is a good was of saying it - short & cryptic! Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:38:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#11997 I know very little about U Penn and so I offer no opinion on which is better. I suggest, however, that you research the professors. For international arbitration, Columbia offers Professors Bermann, Smit and Garro. For corporate law, Columbia offers (among others) Professors Coffee, Goldschmid, and Milhaupt. Tue, 07 Mar 2006 05:39:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#12026 Hi I just posted this on another thread: I hope none of you makes the "mistake" of going to Penn with a Columbia admissions because the LL.M. class is smaller or because of Wharton. If you want Wharton get an MBA not an LL.M. and as far as a business oriented law school NO school beats Columbia. Its the only thing they care about. (and BTW Columbia Business School is no joke either and since you are coming from the higher ranked school (law) in the University they don t treat you like an act of charity) Now as regards LL.M with a concentration in securities/corporate law these are my thoughts which I hope you find of use: I do believe that for corporate law the 2 best programs are Harvard and Columbia. In Harvard you have Bebchuk, Ferrel, Powell, Roe and a greater number of the leading edge corporate academics than anywhere else. In Columbia, take a look at the leading casebooksin US Law. These are the books you are going to spend HOURS AND HOURS READING AND WORKING ON: securities: coffee & seligmann. Coffee, he s in Columbia corporations: Coffee and Eisenberg ie the authors of 2 out of the 3 classic corporations books teach at Columbia, law and finance of corporate acquisitions (IE the M&A course )(06 Ed): Gordon and Gilson (2 of 3), Antitrust: Goldschmid. Same in Administrative Law. In Bankruptcy you actually get the lawyers who represented Enron to teach you bankruptcy. What more can you say? If you want to study US corporate or securities law I find it hard to believe that any school is going to beat Columbia. Plus you are in NY and in a calm part of it in case the big city sounds scary. I hope you make informed decisions Good luck and enjoy your LL.M. wherever you end up going. Its a great year. Tue, 07 Mar 2006 21:55:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#12070 Hi Blogggs, Thank you for your answer - you seem to be pretty well informed - thanks for sharing your knowledge! Do you have a clue which programs are the best in the field of international arbitration? In that perspective which of Harvard, Columbia, NYU or UPenn would you choose (and in what order)? Regards, Wed, 08 Mar 2006 07:15:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#12096 Hi, sorry, I would not know really. If I had to make an un-informed choice I guess I would go with the highest ranked school provided they have some arbitration courses. good luck! Thu, 16 Mar 2006 15:46:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#12990 Hi all, Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but I'm desperate for advice and this seems to be somewhat relevant. I have a choice of doing my law degree in the US or the UK (would be a JD in the US, GDL/LPC in UK). I still haven't heard from all my US schools so don't have a complete picture of my options, but I got an offer from BPP in London. I'm just wondering which route to take??? By the way, I'm interested in practicing environmental law (not defending petrochemical corps, more like working in the NGO sector). Big issues I'm interested in are environmental refugees, climate change, the wildlife trade, etc. I'm 27 and all my work experience is the in NGO sector, and I've got an MPhil in Literature. I'm an American citizen, but my partner is British. HELP! Thu, 16 Mar 2006 15:59:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#12992 Hi Blogggs, Thank you for your answer - you seem to be pretty well informed - thanks for sharing your knowledge! Do you have a clue which programs are the best in the field of international arbitration? In that perspective which of Harvard, Columbia, NYU or UPenn would you choose (and in what order)? Regards, Hi Eowyn, I am French as well, practicing in the field of Int'L Arb. First, congrats on your admissions to NYU, CLS and Penn Law. I was admitted to Penn Law, not to NYU and still waiting for CLS. As to your question re Penn v. Columbia, I answered to the same type of question (re NYU v. Penn, in another thread on this forum), and although my answer concerning Penn v. Columbia would be slightly nuanced, some of the elements in said answer might be useful to you. Thu, 16 Mar 2006 16:21:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/10659/last#12994 @Saloman I have a question that I think you can help me with. I have sent your personal email, if you can give me your thoughts