LLM GUIDE - Master of Laws (LL.M.) Programs Worldwide

LLM Discussion Board

LL.M. Discussion Board > USA > Columbia vs Chicago RSS Feed

Columbia vs Chicago

Author Message
rocky

Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 23
Columbia vs Chicago
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:17 AM
Hey,
What do you think would be better between Chicago and Columbia for international law?
I know Chicago's program is smaller but apparently it's really hard there.
Any advice?
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
Salomon

Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Posts: 61
Columbia vs Chicago
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:57 AM
have you been admitted to CLS ?
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
rocky

Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 23
Columbia vs Chicago
Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:51 PM
Nop, just waiting.
I just want to know all the elements before making a final choice in case I'm admitted.
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
Acknow

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 27
Columbia vs Chicago
Mon Apr 03, 2006 02:08 PM
hi everybody. let's keep on discussing about this topic. Forgetting for a while the rankings (especially those newly issued) what is your opinion: better Columbia or Chicago?
All the best
Ack
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
tmalmine

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 236
Columbia vs Chicago
Mon Apr 03, 2006 03:09 PM
Don't know basically anything about the topic, but this sprang to mind: if you want to study economically oriented (critical) international law theory, bear in mind that Eric Posner, who teaches at Chicago, published a book about the topic last year (or in 2004, the name was something like The Limits of International Law, probably by Cambridge University Press). I also suggest you to think whether Georgetown or NYU would actually be better for international law (you have probably already thought it through though).
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
Echo66

Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 38
Columbia vs Chicago
Mon Apr 03, 2006 06:19 PM
could anyone please tell us more about Columbia? I have heard a lot about the good things about Chicago and really look forward to more insights into the life and study at Columbia. Is there much difference between the two in terms of corporate law education and job-hunting? Do Columbia students enjoy their study and life there? I heard there's much pressure coming from the competition...
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
Acknow

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 27
Columbia vs Chicago
Mon Apr 03, 2006 06:48 PM
Echo, I cannot but joining your questions. Info about Columbia would be really welcome. Are you oriented to UoC or CLS? Personally, I'd rather go to Chicago but I must admit that, maybe, Columbia is better for corporate law.
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
Frenchie

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 7
Columbia vs Chicago
Tue Apr 04, 2006 02:45 PM
I'm currently enrolled at Columbia and I think CLS has one of the best programs to offer in corporate law (coffee, gilson, gordon...). I'm not so sure about the others, but IP and human rights are pretty challenging from what I heard. But I guess we work as much as people in Chicago, the only difference being that we live in NYC which proposes an amazing night life and thousands of opportunities. That makes a big difference in my opinion. Go to visit Cambridge with its 2 bars closing at 1am on WE...
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
Echo66

Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 38
Columbia vs Chicago
Tue Apr 04, 2006 05:15 PM
Thanks for your information, Frenchie. It's so great to have such insider as you to share those information with us. Just some more questions: how's the atmosphere at Columbia? how are the relationship and interaction between students and professors, and among students? Thanks.
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
tgheen

Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Posts: 14
Columbia vs Chicago
Fri Apr 21, 2006 09:11 PM
I'd like to know about Columbia professor interaction as well...

Also, for international law, what are the job prospects of CLS grad?

-T
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
tortello


Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 75
Columbia vs Chicago
Fri Apr 21, 2006 09:18 PM
Hi there.

I read a lots of comments about the best univ...but what would you say about Fordham? Is it so far from the top?

Cheers Tortello
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
Dr_Jekyll


Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 83
Columbia vs Chicago
Tue Apr 25, 2006 03:52 AM
Can't comment on Fordham.

Last year I was admitted to both Chicago and CLS, decided for CLS. Was not an easy choice, but I don't regret it.

My arguments back then were:
- in corporate law, Columbia offers the best Professors (or the largest amount of first class Professors) and many practice-oriented seminars and courses
- job prospects are excellent, as Columbia has a broad network of lawyers in the City
- size of the program was something I didn't like about Columbia at first, but it turned out that 200 was still pretty manageable (I think it's safe to say that I know pretty much the whole class) in terms of getting to know each other; on top of that, 200 is better in terms of networking than 50 (as long as you manage to actually get to know the others)
- New York
- the weather in Chicago was a downside
- the location of UChicago was a downside

Someone asked about international law at Columbia. I don't know why everyone tries to downplay Columbia in this area.. many of the LLMs here do study international law, and they are very happy about the courses and Professors. Here are some examples:
- Henkin (Human Rights, Constitutionalism in Comparative Perspective, Justice in Transactional Affairs);
- Fletcher (International and Comparative Criminal Law);
- Mavroidis (WTO Law, Comparative Antitrust);
- Bhagwati (WTO Law);
- Bermann (Lawyering across multiple legislative orders, Transnational Litigation and Arbitration)
- Gardner (Legal Aspects of U.S. Foreign Economic Policy);
- Smit (International Arbitration)

These are all famous scholars in their area of expertise, so I wouldn't underestimate these courses. On top of that, Columbia manages to attract highly ranked officials from all over the world, diplomatic representatives, people from the UN, etc. and there are lectures and panels every week!

I think that Columbia's achievements in the most recent international moot court competitions stand as proof that Columbia's international law program is not to be discarded (even though it may not be the "best")..

Well, I think that I adressed pretty much everything that was said.

Best,

DocJ
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
Lenny

Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 36
Columbia vs Chicago
Tue Apr 25, 2006 04:45 AM
It seems that CLS is doing a great job here to gather students to their LLM. With all respect to others opinion I would certainly choose Chicago. Has anyone mentioned Richard Posner here? best regards to all!!

[Edited 25 Apr 2006 by Lenny]
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
Dr_Jekyll


Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 83
Columbia vs Chicago
Tue Apr 25, 2006 05:45 PM
Hi again,

Those of you who have been around long enough (more than one year) know that I am not a PR representative of CLS. I am only sharing my experience. If you don't like what I'm writing, just discard it.

As to Posner, I agree that he is number 1 when it comes to his field. Just as Coffee is number 1 when it comes to Securities. Should you choose Chicago over CLS becase of Posner? Or CLS over Chicago because of Coffee?

My answer to this questions is: figure out what you want to do, and then make your choice accordingly. If you want to do corporate law, I would go for CLS not only because of Coffee, but because besides Coffee there are several other stellar Professors in the field of Corporate Law teaching at CLS. Don't throw a single name out there, because it doesn't make that much sense. You pay 40K not only to take one course, but to take about 8 of them. So you better have more than just one name to come up with..

I would make an exception to the above when it comes to research activities. If you want to write a major paper under the supervision of a Professor, then it makes a lot of sense to focus just on one name. In that case you do however have to make sure, before accepting your offer of admission, that the Professor agrees to supervise your research project.

Could it be that this comment is more constructive than the one of my predecessor? I hope so..

DocJ
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
Lenny

Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 36
Columbia vs Chicago
Tue Apr 25, 2006 06:01 PM
I am sorry DR Jekyll if I offended you. I respect you opinion. I just mentioned Richard Posner as an example of the excellence of Chicago´s faculty members. I am not here for a competition about constructiveness in the LLM discussion board.Take it easy DR.... CLS is great too! Best regards DR.
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
jw

Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 192
Columbia vs Chicago
Tue Apr 25, 2006 07:07 PM

mmmmmmm. Coffee. Coffee is good. Wakes me up with sweet smelling aromas....
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
LLM-MEX

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 14
Columbia vs Chicago
Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:23 PM
Hello to all. I am in the same dilemma than some of you guys out there. I have been admitted by both Chicago and Columbia. To be perfectly honest, I do not have idea which of the two will I attend next fall.

Certainly, I prefer the small size of the LLM class at Chicago, but I think Columbia is more prestigious at corporate and finance law. On the other hand, I have heard of some problems for entering the most popular courses at Columbia, mainly because of the great demand (situation that to my knowledge is not shared by Chicago).

Deadlines are coming rapidly, so I would greatly appreciate any help or guidance with the decision I am about to make.

Best regards.
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
TFH

Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 12
Columbia vs Chicago
Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:17 AM
Hey there,

the choice between Chicago and Columbia is extremely difficult. Last year, I was in the same position as you are now, and I more or less flipped the coin. So I cannot give you any advice there.

But: No worries about your course choice at Columbia. Basically, you get any course you want to attend even if it is a very popular course. There are only few caveats, namely the following:

1. Negotiation Workshops: You must rank them no. 1 in order to get your place there. For whatever reason, some people ignore that rule and are accordingly disappointed.

2. Corporations: In the fall term, there are 4 corporations classes offered, all with excellent professors. It is impossible not to get a corporations course in the fall term. In spring term, there is for whatever reason only 1 class which is then very much in demand. Anyways, I would highly recommend you to attend corporations in the fall term because it is the basis for many business law classes in the spring term. The fact that in spring the demand exceeds the supply is due to some students who originally entered into fields other than corporate law and then in the course of their studies discover that employers like corporations law a lot.

3. There are only few other courses where there is an over-demand. But the administration clearly lets you know in their instruction materials what these courses are. You can avoid a disappointment if you place these courses no. 1 or no. 2 in your request form. In addition, it sometimes can happen that some exotic courses are much in demand, something which can nobody predict. For instance, this term there is the seminar "Kafka and the Law" - nobody could assume that the demand would greatly exceed the supply. But please be assured that these disruptions between demand and supply are very rare. In most cases, students get all the courses they like to attend. Even if in individual cases this is not true, it is in practically all the cases only 1 class that you cannot enter into, and not the whole set of your desired classes.

If you go in fall for Corporations, Corporate Finance and American Contract Law, and in spring for Mergers & Acquisitions, Securities & Capital Markets, Corporate Reorganization & Bankruptcy (in this order), you can be sure to be allocated all your desired classes, and it is by the way one of the King's Paths for getting employment in NYC. It is of course not the only one King's Path. There are too many business law classes that are interesting and very much the favorites of employers.

As mentioned, I do not want to interfere with your choice of universities. In my opinion, both Chicago and Columbia are excellent, and you will be quite happy at both places.

Chicago is called the most American of cities, New Yorkers in turn say that New York is not part of the United States. But these subtleties probably won't make your choice easier ;-)

All the best!
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
LLM-MEX

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 14
Columbia vs Chicago
Wed Apr 26, 2006 07:05 PM
Thanks a lot, TFH!!!! Its not an exaggeration to consider your post as the most helpful I have received!!

Best regards,

Andrés.
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
cjoop

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 11
Columbia vs Chicago
Wed Apr 26, 2006 07:48 PM
Andrés, could you please let us know when is your deadline for Columbia?
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
ColumbiaJoe
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 67
Columbia vs Chicago
Wed Apr 26, 2006 08:01 PM
Columbia: Response to TFH 2 - Everyone on the Spring waitlist for Corporations who truly wanted to get in got in. I was 50th on the waitlist and by the end of the add/drop period there were a few spots left open. They used to distribute the classes equally between the semesters but found that most JDs take the course at the beginning of the 2L year.
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
LLM-MEX

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 14
Columbia vs Chicago
Thu Apr 27, 2006 01:29 AM
Certainly. It is May 15.

Regards.
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
AJ

Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 51
Columbia vs Chicago
Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:06 AM
Hi TFH,

I have to appreciate your post on caveats. It certainly is a first on llm-guide.com and I don't think most people wld know all that, especially, about the Negotiations workshop. Any such advice/caveats for the following courses: Transnational Litigation and Arbitration, International Trade Law, International Commercial Arbitration, Trademarks, Copyrights, Trademarks Litigation, Commercial Transactions, Anti Trust and Trade Regulation, Foreign Investments. I know the list is long but hopefully your response would give useful insight to a lot of us.

Another question, is there a upper limit to the number of credits that can be taken up? I see from Columbia's web site that generally students take 11 -14 per Semester. But, is it too uncommon for students to take more?

Cheers,
AJ.

[Edited 27 Apr 2006 by AJ]
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
ColumbiaJoe
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 67
Columbia vs Chicago
Thu Apr 27, 2006 02:54 PM
Copyrights and Antitrust would likely be the toughest to get into. WTO law had a waitlist, but after a week everyone on the waitlist got in. Trans Lit and Arbitration would not be a problem. You can take up to 16 credits - and more if you get permission.
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote
AJ

Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 51
Columbia vs Chicago
Thu Apr 27, 2006 03:14 PM
Hi ColumbiaJoe,

Thanks for your comments. Can you tell me if there is ever a possibility that a student cannot take all his desired classes, not because of waitlist etc., but perhaps because classes might clash i.e. they may be conducted on the same time. Or else, suppose a student is interested in taking up 5 -6 courses etc. in his year at Columbia, is there a possibility that all these 6 courses might be conducted in one semester itself making it impossible for him to pursue all of them. Are the courses repeated in the next semester?

Thanks.

Cheers,
AJ.
Show ProfileProfile P.M. Quote