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HLS LLMs and JOBS

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josepidal

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 237
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sat Apr 08, 2006 07:54 PM
Incidentally, lawpartner, I envy how people over there can easily consider the academe a viable option. We have many excellent professors over here, but the salary is a pittance relative to expectations. I am grateful that some of the most successful practictioners decide to go into teaching after reaching their peaks, more as a hobby than anything else. I had the privilege of speaking to my country's recently retired Ombudsman the other night, and he had to quit after the stress of an endless stream of graft prosecutions took their toll on his health. He looked far more relaxed and I encouraged him to finally teach Criminal Law-related classes at the University of the Philippines. He, in turn, wished me well because he said taking an LLM was the one thing he was never able to do in his incredibly successful career as a litigator.
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Kazaf

Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 75
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sat Apr 08, 2006 08:40 PM
There is obviously a lot of myth and confusion running around these boards about post-LLM careers in the US, so I thought it might be helpful for me to offer my own thoughts.

I will start with some brief details about my background, so that you can understand where I am coming from. I am from a developing country, I obtained my LLB from a top law school in England, and I am doing the LLM now at Harvard. I have never worked before, so I am one of those 23-year-old inexperienced youngsters in our class of extremely talented and accomplished people here. I received job offers from four top Wall Street law firms to join their New York offices permanently as an associate after my LLM (these are the most 'prestigious' jobs which pay $145,000!).

In general, this has been my experience: It is true that JD students have it much, much easier than LLM students in finding a law firm job in the US. However, some US law firms in the US do recruit LLM students, and if so, these are the general factors which inform them (I specifically asked all the law firms that made me offers, and their answers confirm my friends' job hunt experiences):

1. Location of your first law school - in general, people with LLBs from the English-speaking common law countries are most highly regarded (e.g. UK, Canada, Australia, then followed by India and Singapore).

2. Your English 'SPEAKING' abilities - law firms are less impressed by your TOEFL score, than your speaking abilities. American law firm partners tend to be very turned turned off by strong foreign accents.

3. Your LLM fall semester grades - since many firms recruit in the Spring, they will want to see your LLM fall semester grades. If your grades are excellent (especially at law schools like Harvard where the LLMs are placed on the same curve as the JDs), you will be highly regarded.

4. Your LLM school - law firms are DEFINITELY picky with this one. They essentially look a lot more at places like Harvard, Columbia and NYU. I would say it is COMPLETELY UNTRUE that you stand a better chance at Columbia than Harvard. The reason why placement is better at Columbia is probably more Columbia LLM students apply for jobs in the US, whereas the Harvard LLM class has a lot of people who are keen to return to their high profile public / academic positions in their own countries.

5. Relevant foreign language skills - certain languages are very high in demand (e.g. Mandarin, Japanese, Korean and Spanish). But these are more relevant if the firm is hoping to send you to a foreign office.

6. Your previous work experience - if you have relevant work experience, this is helpful, but this is certainly not the most important factor, compared to the above (because you will more than likely be a first-year or at most second-year associate in NY anyway).

7. Your cultural background - US law firm interviews are very different from their UK counterparts. Here, the partners are very keen to know about you to see whether you can comfortably fit into THEIR culture. E.g. during my interviews, I always somehow ended up talking about galleries, museums and theaters in London and Europe, my interest in Victorian literature and classical music.

Overall, I will say that if you are thinking of investing $60K (with loans) for your LLM with the sole aim of getting a job here, then think hard if you do not have most of the above. I did not come to Harvard to get a job here; I had a job waiting for me with an international law firm back in London. I would have been reallly jittery otherwise, because $60K is a lot of money for someone from a developing country like me.

This year, the job market is good. About 50 of us have job offers in New York, bearing in mind that only less than a hundred applied in our class (all the judges, academics and civil servants in our class did not apply for jobs).
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lawpartner

Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 28
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sat Apr 08, 2006 09:10 PM
Thanks Kazaf. You reply would be very helpful to some people on this site. People like Intlaw. And from what I gather, you are no ordinary 23 year old. So much achieved at such a young age and no hint of any ego. Keep it up. All the very best to you. .
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lawpartner

Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 28
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sat Apr 08, 2006 09:13 PM
Josepidal,
The difference between an intern and an associate is more or less like the difference between a date and a spouse :-). At my previous firm, associates turnover was so high that we used to joke that the only difference between and intern and an associate is that the intern knows he is temporary :-).
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katxyz

Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 31
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:35 PM
Haha! Thanks for the well-formatted and prompt response!

Would you have specific advice regarding getting a short-term US job for experience, considering you warn LLMs against disappointment? Also, how should you pace things for the New York Bar if you want to take it in, say, July 2007?

I do know my firm is not hiring LLMs. That doesnt mean there aren't any other firms out there hiring LLMs. If I come across any, I would post it here.
About NY bar, I am not the best person to answer this. I passed it many many years ago and that too I did it on the second attempt. But I am sure there are people on this site who have recently passed the bar and can answer that question better. Good luck!!


Just a quick question for clarification (just out of interest - I'm not planning to apply for any jobs in NY, I already have one in the UK), what do you mean, your firm is not hiring LLMs?
They have made an active decision - "we do not want anyone with an LLM"? Why? Surely if someone has an advanced degree on top of their law degree, that would only work in their favour?
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lawpartner

Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 28
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sun Apr 09, 2006 03:55 AM
Haha! Thanks for the well-formatted and prompt response!

Would you have specific advice regarding getting a short-term US job for experience, considering you warn LLMs against disappointment? Also, how should you pace things for the New York Bar if you want to take it in, say, July 2007?

I do know my firm is not hiring LLMs. That doesnt mean there aren't any other firms out there hiring LLMs. If I come across any, I would post it here.
About NY bar, I am not the best person to answer this. I passed it many many years ago and that too I did it on the second attempt. But I am sure there are people on this site who have recently passed the bar and can answer that question better. Good luck!!


Just a quick question for clarification (just out of interest - I'm not planning to apply for any jobs in NY, I already have one in the UK), what do you mean, your firm is not hiring LLMs?
They have made an active decision - "we do not want anyone with an LLM"? Why? Surely if someone has an advanced degree on top of their law degree, that would only work in their favour?


Sorry. My mistake. Read LLM in the above post as - LLM sans JD. Apologies.
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josepidal

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 237
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sun Apr 09, 2006 05:32 AM
Josepidal,
At my previous firm, associates turnover was so high that we used to joke that the only difference between and intern and an associate is that the intern knows he is temporary :-).

Lol! To put it bluntly, might there be undue distinction between an LLM on an internship and a JD on a "job", with both doing the exact same work?
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josepidal

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 237
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sun Apr 09, 2006 05:43 AM
I will start with some brief details about my background, so that you can understand where I am coming from. I am from a developing country, I obtained my LLB from a top law school in England, and I am doing the LLM now at Harvard. I have never worked before, so I am one of those 23-year-old inexperienced youngsters in our class of extremely talented and accomplished people here. I received job offers from four top Wall Street law firms to join their New York offices permanently as an associate after my LLM (these are the most 'prestigious' jobs which pay $145,000!).

Kazaf, thanks for a post as enlightening as lawpartner's. Thanks also for a beautiful hint of the intellectual and cultural diversity at HLS.

Out of curiosity, however, how would you evaluate someone with a 4-year LLB from the Philippines? We're an anomaly here in Southeast Asia, being a former United States colony, with university education conducted purely in English, with all major broadsheet newspapers in English, and with a legal system whose most modern segments (practically everything except the oldest portions of Civil and Criminal Law) cloned after the United States', even Constitutional Law?
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UnderemployedLawyer

Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 94
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sun Apr 09, 2006 05:22 PM
it's interesting how so much more liberal, progressive, and egalitarian the US is compared to Europe. having lived in the UK most of my life, Italy for 3 yrs, Switzerland for 1 yr, and the US for now 7 yrs, i think i'm in a position to say that all the European acrymony about how fairer a society it is, always compared to the US of course, is complete and utter BS! i have never once been concerned about my age (30 when I got my JD) here in the US - it's an absolute non issue, and it's even "illegal" for an employer to consider a resume/cv which has your date of birth or marital status on it (at least HR will can it!)

if i was back in Europe, i would definitely have to and be prepared to lie (w/in reason) about things like age, marital status. it is such a conservative old fashioned bigoted backwater over there. (maybe holland and scandinavia are more enlightened?)
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UnderemployedLawyer

Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 94
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sun Apr 09, 2006 05:32 PM
but even then lawpartner, wouldn't you agree the JD would still have to be from a top10 school and your rank close to top 10% w/ law review and order-of-the-coif thrown in?

i took that path - LLB from UK, LLM from top-tier school (No.29 though! not a top10 school), then a JD from the same school, fluent english, fluent EU languages, prior work experience, order-of-barristers etc have spent the past 4 yrs since graduating working for 2 partners, as their only associate, in the middle of the southwestern desert, and not making much money at all. i even defaulted on my loans for almost 6 mths during my first year of practice it was that tight. mind you, i'm pretty happy where i am right now.

but, my experience (for what it's worth) is that there just isn't that much work out there, at least not where these posters are looking i.e., large regional/national/int'l firms, even for average or even above-average homegrown US JD students. you really have to be top10% from a JD program at a top10 school to really stand a realistic chance.






And about the age and an LLM (sans JD) applying for a US job: If I am reviewing a resume of an LLM, I make the following deductions...
1) If he is 22-23 and did an LLM, he had his father's money to burn
2) If he is above that age, then either he has an extremely generous father or an extremely impractical lending institute or has stacks of money himself.

In both of the above scenarios, I throw the resume in the trash can and start looking for a JD.

Seriously people, if a US job is your goal, LLM is NOT for you. Do a JD!!
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hannenyh


Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 219
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sun Apr 09, 2006 05:48 PM
Scandinavia is really liberal. It is no way legal to discriminate because of age, ethnicity or marital status. This has been an issue for a long time, because women in their mid 20's early 30's had problems getting corporate jobs (we have this 9-month fully paid maternity leave ). It is really about to change though. Mostly because overall more women than men graduate from law school, and with better grades. I have worked with Brits and you really notice the difference. Not in a bad way, just different. I have never worked in the US, but I have lived there, and I vow it is not as liberal as Scandinavia.
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coco

Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 40
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sun Apr 09, 2006 08:06 PM
irishguy, did you ever get a response from gar33? It seems he disappeared after your post.


Ok, I tried to be nice. I tried to be reasonable. I even went through the posts and tried to remedy the misunderstandings that seemed to cause these unbelievably bitchy, childish, immature and idiotic rows. But that obviously isn't enough for some of the more annoying individuals on this forum. So when in Rome .....

First of all, gar33, please stop posting infantile responses. It's incredibly irritating to have to read through the rubbish and arrogant self promotion. I do not come here to read cat fights. OK!
Secondly, I would also like people to stop questioning and making fun of other peoples claims and credentials. You (gar33), dkvajil (spelt wrong) and shapiro (who is the resident grammar and spelling expert who can't spell) have been on a tirade about lawpartner not actually being a partner for a while now. If I chose to attack everyones claims on this board I could do so very easily, but I dont because I like to believe that people are honest and I'm not a bitter little pill.

For instance, gar33's claims of a summa cum laude from a European University. Unless you did law at the University of Zurich, I don't think there are actually any other Uni's that award this. If you are in UK, then the term is 1st Class Honours dear. And if you do have a summa cum laude from the University of Zurich, BIG DEAL!!!! This is the equivalent of a 1st Class Honours, which, as I am sure you are aware, are not actually that uncommon. 85% of Oxford and Cambridge graduates get one, 60% graduates from Trinity College Dublin and 30% of graduates from University College Dublin. You are on a forum talking to people who have been admitted to the top law schools in the US. Do you really think you are the only one here with that kind of qualification? Awwwwwwww bless!

Lots of people could go on about their own qualifications but they wont, and I certainly will never post about them here for a number of reasons. 1)There is no point. People on here dont need to hear about what I have done in the past; 2) It is an exceptionally arrogant and immature thing to do, and if you wouldn't do it in polite conversation with people you don't know, then you don't post it on here; 3) I am not foolish enough to believe that there is no-one better out there. FACT, no matter how brilliant you are, there is ALWAYS somewhere that little bit smarter or younger or more qualified. To think otherwise is not only naieve, but very very foolish.

I have a feeling I have just declared war, but to be honest I am so sick of the whining and idiotic postings that it might make life just that little bit more interesting. I actually can't wait to see the backlash. Let the games begin!
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irishguy23

Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 75
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sun Apr 09, 2006 08:55 PM
No response, and I really didnt want one either. It seems all is well once again here. I regret getting carried away, but I was so annoyed. Anyway, I'm just glad that the catiness seems to have stopped. Sorry to hear you wont be heading over to do the LL.M at CLS, but having read your reasons it seems like you are going what you know is best for you.
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karamazov

Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 5
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sun Apr 09, 2006 09:40 PM
Getting jobs in the US (an likely Eu as well)
1) If you're social, good looking (and I do mean good-looking compared to other lawyers not the rest of the populace), and dress sharp you just need to meet the right people to land a fantastic job.

2) Everyone who got a JD from a top 10 law school received job offers including the idiots and poor students in those programs.

3) A LLM lets you sit for the bar in NY and gives you the chance to make contacts. If you don't take advantage of this please give me the $60k you plan to spend on the LLM at HLS.

4) Graduating from a top 10 schools with a JD or LLM does not make you a good lawyer. Working in a top 10 firm does not make you a good lawyer. However, either likely means you do work hard and long hours. That equals billables and that's the reason why big firms prosper.

5) Landing big law firm jobs is not always the best money. A colleague of mine turned down two big firm offers to join a medium firm. He made partner in 2 1/2 years and pulls down $750k+.

6) Making numbered lists is meaningless and repetitive.

7) All the 22-23 year olds with LLMs and these offers from big firms please direct me to their websites and which attorney profiles demonstrate this is true (PM me if you don't post it).

8) Likely 99% of the posts on this board are based on personal opinions and not empirical fact.

9) Most lawyers have no sense of humor and are ugly, which is why they became lawyers instead of businessmen.

10) Is a good number to end a list on.
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hannenyh


Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 219
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:16 PM
Haha, that is just too funny! I am happy I am so beautiful ;)
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djvakil


Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 35
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:17 PM
hahahah thats hilarious!!

but to all my fellow llm applicants...........if george bush could make president not once..............but TWICE..........surely we llm's have some chance at a job:)!
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Cindy

Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 57
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:22 PM
Great post! I am also happy to be gorgeous!
It is a good lesson: people should not take themselves too seriously!
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hannenyh


Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 219
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:25 PM
I second the BUSH post! :D
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rakesh56

Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 10
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:29 PM
wow! what an interesting post. looks like i am very late for the show... but overall very informative and interesting post..

let me introduce myself. I am Rakesh Mehra from India, Bangalore. From NLS. Want to apply to HLS next year. Thats what brought me to this post. After reading some initial postings, I got so horriefied about HLS that almost changed my mind. But then the air cleared and by the time I reached the end, it is friendly again.

I agree with a lot of things said in this thread by hanneh, karamazov, lawpartner, Kazaf, Irishguy23 et al. What I dont agree with is Karamazov saying lawyers do not have a sense of humor. I died laughing while reading this post. My eyes still are watery from laughing so hard. You guys are funny. And informative too. All the best to all of us. Anyone here planning to apply to HLS next year?

[Edited 10 Apr 2006 by rakesh56]
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michal

Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 28
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:27 AM

(...) What I was taking issue with, following on from gar33's shock at the slight that it was a 'joke' that we 22 yearolds should have been admitted to Harvard, was that it is not necessary to be a top 10 solicitor or have started the first ever banking law module or advised the President on some legal issue (which are all mindblowingly impressive) to get into a US law firm. All I know, from solicitor's and barristers in the UK, is that if you applied to them, in your 30's, they would require some very serious justification as to why you were applying so late (most applicants being 22/23/24) and frankly, why you thought you needed to do an LLM at that stage either. By work experience I meant internships (essential) rather than having done some other job for a number of years (potential disadvantage in UK).

I guess the passage "it is not necessary to be a top 10 solicitor or have started the first ever banking law module" is about me and Igorek. To make my case precise - I was top 3 in age 31 (still being the youngest on the list) :) But you know how it is - being big fish in a small pond ...

As to your point - I did not dare to apply to HLS or any other top US school being 22/23 because I wouldn't have any chance to be admitted at that age. I simply wasn't ready (mature) untill my late 20'ties / early 30'ties.
The more I admire people who get to top schools LL.M. being so young.

I think that coming to HLS we all start over again.
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Igorek

Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 52
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Fri Apr 14, 2006 05:59 AM
As to your point - I did not dare to apply to HLS or any other top US school being 22/23 because I wouldn't have any chance to be admitted at that age. I simply wasn't ready (mature) untill my late 20'ties / early 30'ties.
The more I admire people who get to top schools LL.M. being so young.


Same here )) See you in HLS, mate!

As per the statement you refer to, I am glad the guy tracks our posts ))) Respect to sachin!
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michal

Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 28
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Fri Apr 14, 2006 03:07 PM
hope to refresh my Russian over a beer some time :)
best regards
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Naz G

Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 12
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:04 AM
Thank you all for your contributions to this highly entertaining thread!

My humble opinion (as a 24 year old daddy's money-burner who used to hold a job offer from a big international law firm before he gave it up due to a change in personal circumstances) is that employability of a candidate in London, New York, Tokyo or Timbuctoo, should be judged by to a mixture of competency and personality. The top law firms in the UK give you ample opportunity on their application forms and indeed throughout their selection processes to show both off. I would be suprised if this is not the case elsewhere.

In the grand scheme of landing a job, an LLM credential is surely but a piece of the puzzle?! Personally I would not use an LLM to secure a job unless:

a) there was something specific linking the LLM to the job that I am applying for (and I can use that link to demonstrate that I bring something weighty to the table) OR

b) I needed to bolster my academic record

But hey, that's just me!

All the best.
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nick_156

Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 4
HLS LLMs and JOBS
Tue Apr 18, 2006 04:20 PM
Hi everyone, I'm new to this and I have a couple of questions. I'm a law student in Croatia, due to graduate in July. What are my chances of getting into a LLM programme at HLS and what kind of activities should I engage in to enchance my rating before the admissions comitee. Should it be somekind of legal work here in Croatia or would they be more interested if I had working experience abroad(in a form of an internship or so)? I talked to a guy who pursued a JD degree at HLS and he told me that being from Croatia, a country from which there aren't many applicants, would give me a head start. Is he right or is he just trying to make me feel better?I'm resonably fluent in English and obtaining a TOEFL wouldn't be a problem. If u have any other information or suggestions,including:don't even bother with HLS and try somewhere else in Europe, please tell me, I would be grateful.
Thanks
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