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LLM vs. NY Bar

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UnderemployedLawyer

Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 94
LLM vs. NY Bar
Thu Apr 13, 2006 03:50 AM
my LLB is from the UK - southampton uni, which was a respectable uni when i went to it and i'm sure it still is. i then did the LLM, then JD, and after 2 yrs sat the QLTT.

i have no ideas about anything canadian, so can't respond.

i do know that the UK LLB is regarded as merely an undergraduate degree in the US - which of course it is, and probably slightly less regarded than an undergraduate degree in a non-legal subject which most US law students have. im my op, very useful to have a non law bachelor's degree since it keeps more doors open.

seriously, it's hard enough getting a job w/ a quality firm anywhere in the US (apart from north dakota etc i suppose) w/ a full JD, let alone an LLM or an LLB. i can't see a large US firm hiring a 21 yr old british kid w/ just 3 yrs of post high school education vis-a-vis your standard 25-35 yr old US grad w/ 7 yrs of uni and graduate school.
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coco

Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 40
LLM vs. NY Bar
Thu Apr 13, 2006 09:46 AM
good points, I'm 36 have a BA from U of Toronto and an LLB from U of London. Older, but (hopefully) wiser ;)
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Cindy

Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 57
LLM vs. NY Bar
Thu Apr 13, 2006 02:30 PM
To Coco,

I read a few of your posts and I think you made the right choice! Good luck!

To Underemployedlawyer,

I tried to sent you a personal message. I do not know it you got it. Here, I will summarize the content of it:

It is about your saying that one needs to do its LLM at a top-10 schools in the USNews ranking to have a chance to find a job in a big firm.
Then if I understood you well, taking Berkeley last year (which was outside of the circle ot the top 10) was not a good option regarding a job in a big firm. Whereas, now, because it is ranking number 8, it is ok. I am a little bit puzzled.
Could you also tell me if for you a LLM in Georgetown is not a good option?

I thank you very much for your answer.
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UnderemployedLawyer

Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 94
LLM vs. NY Bar
Fri Apr 14, 2006 05:46 AM
berkely and georgetown are both renowned schools - i'm not sure of the ranking


To Coco,

I read a few of your posts and I think you made the right choice! Good luck!

To Underemployedlawyer,

I tried to sent you a personal message. I do not know it you got it. Here, I will summarize the content of it:

It is about your saying that one needs to do its LLM at a top-10 schools in the USNews ranking to have a chance to find a job in a big firm.
Then if I understood you well, taking Berkeley last year (which was outside of the circle ot the top 10) was not a good option regarding a job in a big firm. Whereas, now, because it is ranking number 8, it is ok. I am a little bit puzzled.
Could you also tell me if for you a LLM in Georgetown is not a good option?

I thank you very much for your answer.
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Cindy

Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 57
LLM vs. NY Bar
Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:55 AM
To underemployedlawyer:

Actually in the USNews ranking, Georgetown is 14 and was also 14 last year. It is not in the top-ten.
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angage

Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1
LLM vs. NY Bar
Mon Aug 14, 2006 01:23 PM
Hi Coco.
Just wanted to let you know. The Canadian LLB degrees are considered post graduate and the Australian LLB degrees are considered undergraduate qualifications. I attended law school in Australia and was afforded the opportunity to get the Juris Doctor degree from my school. A lot of the Canadian students are faced with the same problem as you and I are... getting licensed to practise law. LLB and/or JD are basically the same thing... the US phased out their LLB degree programs around the late 60s and/or early 70s due to the lobbying efforts of the ABA and military lawyers.
Passing the NY bar or any state bar is going to the be key for us [US citizens educated in law outside the US]. If you decide to get the LLM it is better to specialise and no go for a generalist LLM... because most JD programs are considered generalist.
If you are looking for a cheap LLM program... check out Loyol Marymount University... it's only $14K. And you get to live in Italy! Good luck with the NY Bar too!
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gkh_2005


Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 70
LLM vs. NY Bar
Mon Aug 14, 2006 03:31 PM
I think it is possible to take the New York Bar exam with only a LL.B Degree from India. Please check the New York Bar website for more details.

I think doing a LL.M from a U.S. University, helps foreign lawyers to get basic grounding in U.S. Laws, since there is a compulsory coursework in Perspectives in American Legal system and get to take courses in American Sales Law,Contracts etc.
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curiousone

Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 1
LLM vs. NY Bar
Wed Sep 13, 2006 08:25 AM
Intl Law,

The portion that you quoted from the Cal Bar website is for applicants who received their legal education in the US. For applicants who received their legal education outside the US, different requirements apply. For this information, access the Cal Bar website at www.calbar.org. Once you are on the main page, click on the admissions link located on the right side of the page. Once on the admissions page, scroll down past the heading General Information until you reach the linlk for foreign applicants.



I read it in detail and my understanding is that in addition to your LLB , on emust also have done 4 yrs at a US school OR completed the LLM.........am I not reading it correctly?
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richardvf

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 186
LLM vs. NY Bar
Thu Sep 14, 2006 05:58 AM
I think you need the equivalent of 2 years of undergraduate studies and 4 years of law study in total. All this education can be completed in your home country. However, if you are a licensed lawyer in your home country, you are eligible to take the California bar exam without any further legal education. Probably would be easier to qualify to take the California bar by becoming a lawyer in your home country rather than trying to meet the California Bar education requirements, especially if you only have a 3 or 4 year undergraduate LL.B.
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adavid

Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 4
LLM vs. NY Bar
Tue May 22, 2007 06:10 AM
Dear All,

I have sat here reading all the threads on this topic and many things come to mind. I am an Australia completing my LLB, and will work in the US upon completion. Many people become so concerned about how many degrees they hold, what rankind a school is, how flooded the market may be, what disadvantages they may be under etc. The bottom line is that if you want to work in the US, regardless of your what kind of degree you hold, then you will if you want to. Determination and tenacity will count for much more than an LLB, JD, LLM's and all the rest put together. I tend to agree with CoCo. The reason I got into law school was that I wanted to practice law,..and I will. That means that I need to get my legal education, and get busy knocking down doors, and remaining focused. This is something that they do not teach you at law school. To not be so concerned with the factors that you cannot control. Before some of you jump to the conclusion that I am ignorant, im not. Many Australians and common law LLB holders have taken the same path that I will take, and have done so successfully. I have done my research and are focused. Dont drown in the facors such as competition etc.
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fg

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 329
LLM vs. NY Bar
Tue May 22, 2007 07:15 PM
Yes, adavid, tenacity and positive thinking does count for a lot. However, for those who aren't Australian (and cannot qualify for the E3 (Iraqi War) Visa), there is much luck involved. I have three friends who are already working at commercial firms in Manhattan on J and F visas who are getting kicked out of the country in August because they did not win this year's H1B visa lottery. Their only option is to leave the country (and their apartments, girlfriends, clients etc) for one year and reapply. I also know another couple of people who had jobs lined up at Manhattan firms and didn't get selected for the H1B. They are stuck in their hometowns.
So your post is simplistic and a little naive.

[Edited 22 May 2007 by fg]
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adavid

Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 4
LLM vs. NY Bar
Fri May 25, 2007 06:18 AM
Visas? I thought we were talking about education. Anyway, before you change the subject and call me naive, the E3 Visa (possibly linked to free trade agreements between AUS and USA, ..not the war) does not apply to me because my wife is from the US. Im sorry that it is a different situation for many, however, I suggest to revise my last post and consider that this is exactly the point I am trying to make. People get uneccessarily bogged down with these issues like how long you can stay in the country, even if you get in. Whats the point? The US is not that exciting. At the risk of sounding "simplistic" I will add another point. If you want to work there, work as hard as you can to get a position and to stay there. Otherwise, if its all two difficult then you've really answered your own problem.
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gkh_2005


Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 70
LLM vs. NY Bar
Fri May 25, 2007 06:31 AM
Hi adavid,

Your blog is in a positive direction. It has given a lot of encoragement to me. I am a Lawyer from India and completed my LL.M., from a top tier University in US. I tried really hard to get a job and ultimately succeeded in finding one, albeit at a low salary, however, good to start a career in the U.S. I appeared for the New York Bar in Feb, 2007 and flunked by few points(got 639/1000; passing you need 665/1000). I am planning to take the bar again in July, 2007 and hope to clear it.

I think it is a case of "try try, till you succeed", to find a job in the US.
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adavid

Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 4
LLM vs. NY Bar
Fri May 25, 2007 12:25 PM
gkh,

Great to hear that you have the focus to get back up and try again. You obviously have the ability to pass it by the sounds of your score. It's also encouraging to know that there are people out there that are willing to take a job starting at a lower salary range so that they can actually begin their career and put their ego aside. Many people fail to make the cut the first time and then go ahead and flourish in their careers. Just do it.
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gkh_2005


Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 70
LLM vs. NY Bar
Fri May 25, 2007 07:17 PM
Hi adavid,

You are absolutely right, in my case. I worked as Manager- Legal in a reputed German MNC in India in their Corporate Legal Dept., as Manager- Legal for about 8 years. Having done that, I did not flinch a bit, about taking a job for a low salary. I knew that this is a foreign country and had to start my career somewhere.
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fg

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 329
LLM vs. NY Bar
Tue May 29, 2007 12:09 AM
At the risk of sounding "simplistic" I will add another point. If you want to work there, work as hard as you can to get a position and to stay there.


No, no, adavid. You have missed my point. My friends did work hard and have been at their law firms for a year in NYC already but the H1B lottery system means that they have to leave the country no matter how much their employer wants them to stay.
So my point is that working hard, having the right attitude will only take you so far. People should know the ridiculous visa situation when they aim to get jobs in NYC. Recently, under the Bush administration, it has become increasingly difficult to work here - the visa cap for H1Bs is reduced from almost 200,000 to 60,000 and those 60,000 are decided by lottery.
I don't expect you to understand where I am coming from as this information regarding the H1B visas only came out a few weeks ago and obviously isn't relevant to you since you have an American spouse. Perhaps marrying an American is a better option than working hard too....lol
I know it would seem that the visa talk is somewhat tangential but it has been awful for me to see my friends who have worked hard, got into Ivie League schools, and accepted by employers in NYC only to be kicked out of the country because of a system based on luck. The assumption in your post that they can't work in NYC because they haven't worked hard enough or thought positively enough just isn't correct.
So unfortunately, when it comes to working in NYC, education and visas are very much interlinked. No matter how hard you work at your education, you are stuffed if your name doesn't get pulled out of the H1B visa hat (unless, of course, you marry an American... (which some might say is also hard work - joke))

[Edited 29 May 2007 by fg]
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fg

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 329
LLM vs. NY Bar
Tue May 29, 2007 12:12 AM
also ,adavid, why do you think our fair country received a "free trade" agreement with the US. The timing was a bit too coincidental with our support of the Iraq war don't you think?
It is a common understanding back in Oz that it was because of the war.
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gkh_2005


Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 70
LLM vs. NY Bar
Tue May 29, 2007 05:40 AM
I am aware that there is an additional quota of 20,000 Visas exclusively for Master degree holders. Foreign Attorneys with an LL.M., Degree from U.S. can qualify under this program.

My employer has applied for my H1-B under this quota and I think that I just made it under this quota.
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fg

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 329
LLM vs. NY Bar
Tue May 29, 2007 02:54 PM
That is good news that there are extra visas for LLMs. My friend at NYU just got his LLM and is going to Cravath but still missed out though since it is still done by lottery (even for foreign lawyers with LLMs).
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