http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016 en LLM vs. NY Bar - LLM GUIDE Discussion Board Sun, 09 Apr 2006 17:47:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16016 After weeks of agonizing over this dilemma, I've decided to bow out of my acceptances to Columbia and NYU. I've been speaking with various people in the legal profession and the consensus seems to be that passing the NY Bar alone is all I'll really need to work in the US. Let's face it , without a JD (which I'm not willing to do from scratch) it'll be a rough ride (whether I have an LLM or not), so I think my life experiences and door knocking ability will have to come into play. This is not to say an LLM is a poor move, but the time (1 year) and financial investment (70k) won't 'significantly' increase my marketability to the point of justifying it - unless of course I want to hyper specialize in something like tax, which I don't. Also, I'd much rather work for a small mom and pop outfit, so I don't need to impress anyone with big name schools after my name. So there you have it, I'm going to keep my 70k (life savings) and use it to tie me over while looking for work. Hopefully I'll pass the Bar exam in July... getting ready to hit the books. All the best everyone! Sun, 09 Apr 2006 18:08:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16019 excellent post coco, you raise some very interesting points. In your case it seems reasonalbe that you don't need the LLM. For those who want to teach or go back to their home countries then it makes more sense. I think you could do a JD in 2 years, but it's still a big expense with no guarantees. If you're NY qualified and have the right personality/attitude, you'll find fulfilling work. take good care. Sun, 09 Apr 2006 18:08:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16020 if you're already a US citizen/perm resident, or else already have an LLM or JD, then i guess you wouldn't need to, unless like you said, you want to specialize in tax or something. otherwise, it'd be foolish of you to think you can just come to the US and land a job after passing the NY Bar. the LLM at the very least, at least from a top 10 school, gives you credibility, plus, a year to look for work and/or work, and then once in, get a longer work permit and ultimately a green card. as for mom n pop outfits, they are more likely to require a JD than the bigger firms who sometimes will hire good LLMs w/ languages and prior work experience. i myself had to get a full JD just to have the chance of now working for a 3 man law firm earning less than 40K. but heck, i'm in the US and consider it a privilege to live here. Sun, 09 Apr 2006 18:14:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16021 I am a US citizen. I did an LLB in England because my girlfriend was living there at the time. Looking back I should have done a JD but it's too late for that now. Basically, I have a BA and an LLB. So you think I'm a dead man without an LLM from a top 10? Sun, 09 Apr 2006 18:35:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16025 if you're already a US citizen then you can take the chance i guess, or else hang your shingle. but, obviously you'll need to come up w/ some reason why you should be hire w/out any US law school education. I am a US citizen. I did an LLB in England because my girlfriend was living there at the time. Looking back I should have done a JD but it's too late for that now. Basically, I have a BA and an LLB. So you think I'm a dead man without an LLM from a top 10? Sun, 09 Apr 2006 18:36:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16026 oh, i see, i think you could justify that you have a 3 yr law degree which you took after undergraduate. Sun, 09 Apr 2006 18:53:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16029 I would consider a JD, but only if I could do it in around 2 years. I know there are several schools offering 2 year programs for foreign trained lawyers, but they all want the LSAT prior to applying; so that essentially makes it a 3 year ordeal... Sun, 09 Apr 2006 19:06:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16030 Underemployedlawyer, Could you please tell us which universities you consider "top 10". Are you talking about the 10 first schools in the US News ranking? Thank you for your answer! Mon, 10 Apr 2006 00:57:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16049 yes - see USNews rankings for 2006 e.g., harvard, yale, etc. the majority of biglaw employers recognize school names, not programs. Underemployedlawyer, Could you please tell us which universities you consider "top 10". Are you talking about the 10 first schools in the US News ranking? Thank you for your answer! Mon, 10 Apr 2006 04:22:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16052 Coco, Because you are a US citizen and are already qualified to take the NY bar exam, your rationale makes sense to me. You have a nice little nest egg that you can use to start your own practice or to supplement your income if you get a job at a small firm that does not initially pay well. If anything, a 2 year JD would be better than a LLM. However, given your career goals, a JD or LLM is really not necessary. Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:15:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16068 Thanks richardvf, The only reason I was considering an LLM is because my LLB is from a relatively unknown school in England. I then realized that there are less exorbitant ways of gaining credibility than spending 70k for a top tier LLM - If NY state admits me to their bar, that's credibility enough. Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:06:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16070 Coco, I am so glad to read your post. U raised some valid points and some of them clarify my doubts. I too am a US citizen (by some sheer stroke of luck, u can say, was born here). Have a law degree LLB from India. Consistently good acads and extra curriculars. So can get into LLM in top 5, I think. Want to work in US. Find 70K way out of my reach to cough up. ....so your NY bar route seems good to me Would u know if Indian LLB would let me sit for NY bar? Ours is a 3 year LLB course, after graduation. LLB in India is based on Common Law System, most laws being taken from UK laws. Thanks. Good luck!! Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:30:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16072 Hi IntLaw, That's a very good question. From what I know (but don't quote me) I think the LLB has to be from the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand or South Africa. It does not seem fair that India is excluded considering the common law background. I would hope someone else in the forum can clarify your question more definitively. I was under the impression that an applicant with an LLB from India must first do an American LLM. Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:37:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16074 Thanks coco, for a quick reply. Though I must admit I would have like a delayed but different reply..:-). So may be cant get out of LLM after all...bummer Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:00:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16076 I would check the NY Bar exam website for more detailed info. Don't give up hope, maybe you'll qualify afterall. Tue, 11 Apr 2006 02:38:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16128 Also check California, which does not require a LL.M if certain foreign education requirements are met. www.calbar.org. Wed, 12 Apr 2006 07:49:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16248 Thanks Coco and Richardvf. I will check the california website. Hope there is a way to appear for bar there. Thanks again. Wed, 12 Apr 2006 08:00:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16249 I found some relevent on www.calbar.org I thought I would reproduce it here for the benefit of those who need it..... "To be eligible to take the California Bar Examination, one must have completed at least two years of college before beginning the study of law or must have passed certain specified College Level Equivalency Program examinations before beginning law study and must have graduated from a law school approved by the American Bar Association or accredited by the Committee of Bar Examiners of The State Bar of California or have completed four years of law study at an unaccredited or correspondence law school registered with the Committee or studied law in a law office or judge's chambers in accordance with the Rules Regulating Admission to Practice Law in California." So I guess, for me, there is no way to get around LLM. Wed, 12 Apr 2006 08:04:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16250 Its significant to note the following aspects a) Recently the Qualified Lawyers Transfer Test has been introduced in India . Now Indian laywyers can appear for the test to get the 'Solicitor England and Wales' qualification. b) I think the primary reason for Indians not being able to appear for the NY Bar exam coupled with coaching programs like BARBRI is due the closed approach the the Indian legal system has towards foreign firms. c)The situation should change in the near future once International firms make a foray into India and set up offices. We still do not have any large law firm to boast about except perhaps the two or three standard Indian'large' law firms. NY Bar Exams without an LLM requirement can only become a reality once firms like Clifford Chance, Shearman and Sterling or Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer enter the Indian market. Wed, 12 Apr 2006 08:18:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16252 Thanks Student02. Lets keep our fingers crossed that India opens up sooner. One question - with QLTT u mentioned above, can one practice in UK? Wed, 12 Apr 2006 17:55:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16318 yes, the QLTT he's referring too is offered by the law society of england and wales to commonlaw trained lawyers w/ at least 2 yrs post-admission experience in their qualifying jurisdiction e.g., US, australia etc i did it last yr in los angeles - it's a an easy exam compared to a US state bar exam, and it's open book. however, the reality is that if you are good enough to get a job in the UK then you really don't need the QLTT, and lawyers w/ quality experience are more likely to land jobs w/ caliber firms in london, even w/out the QLTT, than those who have passed the QLTT but only worked for smaller firms or in government. believe me, i know because i've been there - got it all: LLB, LLM, JD, 2 US bar exams passed, and now the QLTT - and none of them have really proved that useful apart from the JD which had enabled me to at least gain a license to practise law. Thanks Student02. Lets keep our fingers crossed that India opens up sooner. One question - with QLTT u mentioned above, can one practice in UK? Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:46:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16321 Under, I admire your tenacity in acquiring all those qualifications. There is something I want to challenge you on. Why is it that some many Canadians are recruited to big firms in NYC after graduating with an LLB (not JD) from Osgoode Hall and University of Toronto? There are recruiters who specialize in matching these grads to big NY firms. Maybe the LLB in Canada is more respected than England? Not sure, but what I do know is that it's by no means difficult to find work at a top firm in NY if you did a well respected LLB in Canada. Not only that, but the firms pay for BARBri review. Wed, 12 Apr 2006 19:54:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16327 Coco , Have you done LLB from Canada? How is the job market for Canadian LLBs in 1) Canada 2) US. (From your above post seems like if I go to the right school in Canada, might be possible to find job in US. Do u have first hand experience abt the statistics? UEL, "believe me, i know because i've been there - got it all: LLB, LLM, JD, 2 US bar exams passed, and now the QLTT - and none of them have really proved that useful apart from the JD which had enabled me to at least gain a license to practise law." That is a lot of time, money, energy and tenacity. Would be very interesting and useful to know ur views abt the above. Is ur LLB from Canada? Thanks. Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:22:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16330 I was making the point that it's not a waste of time doing the NY Bar with only an LLB. Many in this forum said those without JD's are more or less doomed in the US market. The fact Canadians do it with just an LLB is reason to believe that there's hope. I received my LLB form the UK, so perhaps that's not as effective as a Canadian one... in this respect maybe a US LLM would help somewhat. Thu, 13 Apr 2006 02:27:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16357 Intl Law, The portion that you quoted from the Cal Bar website is for applicants who received their legal education in the US. For applicants who received their legal education outside the US, different requirements apply. For this information, access the Cal Bar website at www.calbar.org. Once you are on the main page, click on the admissions link located on the right side of the page. Once on the admissions page, scroll down past the heading General Information until you reach the linlk for foreign applicants. Thu, 13 Apr 2006 04:50:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16362 my LLB is from the UK - southampton uni, which was a respectable uni when i went to it and i'm sure it still is. i then did the LLM, then JD, and after 2 yrs sat the QLTT. i have no ideas about anything canadian, so can't respond. i do know that the UK LLB is regarded as merely an undergraduate degree in the US - which of course it is, and probably slightly less regarded than an undergraduate degree in a non-legal subject which most US law students have. im my op, very useful to have a non law bachelor's degree since it keeps more doors open. seriously, it's hard enough getting a job w/ a quality firm anywhere in the US (apart from north dakota etc i suppose) w/ a full JD, let alone an LLM or an LLB. i can't see a large US firm hiring a 21 yr old british kid w/ just 3 yrs of post high school education vis-a-vis your standard 25-35 yr old US grad w/ 7 yrs of uni and graduate school. Thu, 13 Apr 2006 10:46:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16380 good points, I'm 36 have a BA from U of Toronto and an LLB from U of London. Older, but (hopefully) wiser ;) Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:30:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16403 To Coco, I read a few of your posts and I think you made the right choice! Good luck! To Underemployedlawyer, I tried to sent you a personal message. I do not know it you got it. Here, I will summarize the content of it: It is about your saying that one needs to do its LLM at a top-10 schools in the USNews ranking to have a chance to find a job in a big firm. Then if I understood you well, taking Berkeley last year (which was outside of the circle ot the top 10) was not a good option regarding a job in a big firm. Whereas, now, because it is ranking number 8, it is ok. I am a little bit puzzled. Could you also tell me if for you a LLM in Georgetown is not a good option? I thank you very much for your answer. Fri, 14 Apr 2006 06:46:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16450 berkely and georgetown are both renowned schools - i'm not sure of the ranking To Coco, I read a few of your posts and I think you made the right choice! Good luck! To Underemployedlawyer, I tried to sent you a personal message. I do not know it you got it. Here, I will summarize the content of it: It is about your saying that one needs to do its LLM at a top-10 schools in the USNews ranking to have a chance to find a job in a big firm. Then if I understood you well, taking Berkeley last year (which was outside of the circle ot the top 10) was not a good option regarding a job in a big firm. Whereas, now, because it is ranking number 8, it is ok. I am a little bit puzzled. Could you also tell me if for you a LLM in Georgetown is not a good option? I thank you very much for your answer. Fri, 14 Apr 2006 11:55:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#16464 To underemployedlawyer: Actually in the USNews ranking, Georgetown is 14 and was also 14 last year. It is not in the top-ten. Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:23:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#20586 Hi Coco. Just wanted to let you know. The Canadian LLB degrees are considered post graduate and the Australian LLB degrees are considered undergraduate qualifications. I attended law school in Australia and was afforded the opportunity to get the Juris Doctor degree from my school. A lot of the Canadian students are faced with the same problem as you and I are... getting licensed to practise law. LLB and/or JD are basically the same thing... the US phased out their LLB degree programs around the late 60s and/or early 70s due to the lobbying efforts of the ABA and military lawyers. Passing the NY bar or any state bar is going to the be key for us [US citizens educated in law outside the US]. If you decide to get the LLM it is better to specialise and no go for a generalist LLM... because most JD programs are considered generalist. If you are looking for a cheap LLM program... check out Loyol Marymount University... it's only $14K. And you get to live in Italy! Good luck with the NY Bar too! Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:31:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#20590 I think it is possible to take the New York Bar exam with only a LL.B Degree from India. Please check the New York Bar website for more details. I think doing a LL.M from a U.S. University, helps foreign lawyers to get basic grounding in U.S. Laws, since there is a compulsory coursework in Perspectives in American Legal system and get to take courses in American Sales Law,Contracts etc. Wed, 13 Sep 2006 09:25:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#21118 Intl Law, The portion that you quoted from the Cal Bar website is for applicants who received their legal education in the US. For applicants who received their legal education outside the US, different requirements apply. For this information, access the Cal Bar website at www.calbar.org. Once you are on the main page, click on the admissions link located on the right side of the page. Once on the admissions page, scroll down past the heading General Information until you reach the linlk for foreign applicants. I read it in detail and my understanding is that in addition to your LLB , on emust also have done 4 yrs at a US school OR completed the LLM.........am I not reading it correctly? Thu, 14 Sep 2006 06:58:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#21146 I think you need the equivalent of 2 years of undergraduate studies and 4 years of law study in total. All this education can be completed in your home country. However, if you are a licensed lawyer in your home country, you are eligible to take the California bar exam without any further legal education. Probably would be easier to qualify to take the California bar by becoming a lawyer in your home country rather than trying to meet the California Bar education requirements, especially if you only have a 3 or 4 year undergraduate LL.B. Tue, 22 May 2007 07:10:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#31772 Dear All, I have sat here reading all the threads on this topic and many things come to mind. I am an Australia completing my LLB, and will work in the US upon completion. Many people become so concerned about how many degrees they hold, what rankind a school is, how flooded the market may be, what disadvantages they may be under etc. The bottom line is that if you want to work in the US, regardless of your what kind of degree you hold, then you will if you want to. Determination and tenacity will count for much more than an LLB, JD, LLM's and all the rest put together. I tend to agree with CoCo. The reason I got into law school was that I wanted to practice law,..and I will. That means that I need to get my legal education, and get busy knocking down doors, and remaining focused. This is something that they do not teach you at law school. To not be so concerned with the factors that you cannot control. Before some of you jump to the conclusion that I am ignorant, im not. Many Australians and common law LLB holders have taken the same path that I will take, and have done so successfully. I have done my research and are focused. Dont drown in the facors such as competition etc. Tue, 22 May 2007 20:15:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#31815 Yes, adavid, tenacity and positive thinking does count for a lot. However, for those who aren't Australian (and cannot qualify for the E3 (Iraqi War) Visa), there is much luck involved. I have three friends who are already working at commercial firms in Manhattan on J and F visas who are getting kicked out of the country in August because they did not win this year's H1B visa lottery. Their only option is to leave the country (and their apartments, girlfriends, clients etc) for one year and reapply. I also know another couple of people who had jobs lined up at Manhattan firms and didn't get selected for the H1B. They are stuck in their hometowns. So your post is simplistic and a little naive. Fri, 25 May 2007 07:18:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#31945 Visas? I thought we were talking about education. Anyway, before you change the subject and call me naive, the E3 Visa (possibly linked to free trade agreements between AUS and USA, ..not the war) does not apply to me because my wife is from the US. Im sorry that it is a different situation for many, however, I suggest to revise my last post and consider that this is exactly the point I am trying to make. People get uneccessarily bogged down with these issues like how long you can stay in the country, even if you get in. Whats the point? The US is not that exciting. At the risk of sounding "simplistic" I will add another point. If you want to work there, work as hard as you can to get a position and to stay there. Otherwise, if its all two difficult then you've really answered your own problem. Fri, 25 May 2007 07:31:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#31947 Hi adavid, Your blog is in a positive direction. It has given a lot of encoragement to me. I am a Lawyer from India and completed my LL.M., from a top tier University in US. I tried really hard to get a job and ultimately succeeded in finding one, albeit at a low salary, however, good to start a career in the U.S. I appeared for the New York Bar in Feb, 2007 and flunked by few points(got 639/1000; passing you need 665/1000). I am planning to take the bar again in July, 2007 and hope to clear it. I think it is a case of "try try, till you succeed", to find a job in the US. Fri, 25 May 2007 13:25:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#31957 gkh, Great to hear that you have the focus to get back up and try again. You obviously have the ability to pass it by the sounds of your score. It's also encouraging to know that there are people out there that are willing to take a job starting at a lower salary range so that they can actually begin their career and put their ego aside. Many people fail to make the cut the first time and then go ahead and flourish in their careers. Just do it. Fri, 25 May 2007 20:17:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#31976 Hi adavid, You are absolutely right, in my case. I worked as Manager- Legal in a reputed German MNC in India in their Corporate Legal Dept., as Manager- Legal for about 8 years. Having done that, I did not flinch a bit, about taking a job for a low salary. I knew that this is a foreign country and had to start my career somewhere. Tue, 29 May 2007 01:09:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#32108 At the risk of sounding "simplistic" I will add another point. If you want to work there, work as hard as you can to get a position and to stay there. No, no, adavid. You have missed my point. My friends did work hard and have been at their law firms for a year in NYC already but the H1B lottery system means that they have to leave the country no matter how much their employer wants them to stay. So my point is that working hard, having the right attitude will only take you so far. People should know the ridiculous visa situation when they aim to get jobs in NYC. Recently, under the Bush administration, it has become increasingly difficult to work here - the visa cap for H1Bs is reduced from almost 200,000 to 60,000 and those 60,000 are decided by lottery. I don't expect you to understand where I am coming from as this information regarding the H1B visas only came out a few weeks ago and obviously isn't relevant to you since you have an American spouse. Perhaps marrying an American is a better option than working hard too....lol I know it would seem that the visa talk is somewhat tangential but it has been awful for me to see my friends who have worked hard, got into Ivie League schools, and accepted by employers in NYC only to be kicked out of the country because of a system based on luck. The assumption in your post that they can't work in NYC because they haven't worked hard enough or thought positively enough just isn't correct. So unfortunately, when it comes to working in NYC, education and visas are very much interlinked. No matter how hard you work at your education, you are stuffed if your name doesn't get pulled out of the H1B visa hat (unless, of course, you marry an American... (which some might say is also hard work - joke)) Tue, 29 May 2007 01:12:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#32109 also ,adavid, why do you think our fair country received a "free trade" agreement with the US. The timing was a bit too coincidental with our support of the Iraq war don't you think? It is a common understanding back in Oz that it was because of the war. Tue, 29 May 2007 06:40:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#32123 I am aware that there is an additional quota of 20,000 Visas exclusively for Master degree holders. Foreign Attorneys with an LL.M., Degree from U.S. can qualify under this program. My employer has applied for my H1-B under this quota and I think that I just made it under this quota. Tue, 29 May 2007 15:54:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/16016/last#32146 That is good news that there are extra visas for LLMs. My friend at NYU just got his LLM and is going to Cravath but still missed out though since it is still done by lottery (even for foreign lawyers with LLMs).