http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229 en China LLM - LLM GUIDE Discussion Board Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:15:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#229 Hi! Is there anybody here who knows something about this LLM Programs in Chine or maybe even a person that has made his LLM in China? What is the language like,are lessons in English or Chinese etc.. Thank you for your help! Fri, 14 Jan 2005 07:06:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#237 hi Juliette, i am a Chinese law student, in my last year in doing my LLB. I don't think there is any LLM programme taught in English offered by the universities in the mainland. I am studying in Beijing, which has the best universities. Plus Chinese LLM is different from the international standard. Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:34:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#242 hi star! thank you for the information! You know anything about this Temple University LLM program in Beijing at Tsinghua University? Sat, 15 Jan 2005 05:20:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#258 Hi Juliette, I havent heard of that programme before. But I had a search in google, and find some info that might be useful for you. Here is a link in Chinese:http://www.tsinghua.edu.cn/docsn/fxy/tanchu_wenjian001.htm.... their contact info could be found. But it looks like it is designed for Chinese law students or legal practitioners who will get involved in foreign legal affairs... Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:28:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#273 Thank you for this inside information Star, That#s very intersesting! When you say that Chinese LLM is very different from LLM in other countries what do you mean? The duration or content of the program? Juliette Sun, 16 Jan 2005 05:39:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#278 sorry. i might be wrong because i didnt know that chinese universities offer LLM programmes in co-operation with unis abroad. If they do, i guess they should normal LLM programmes. But you should contact them to make sure you are eligible for these programmes because it is said that they are designed for chinese law students to enhance their professional qualifications.... have a nice weekend Mon, 17 Jan 2005 00:59:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#302 Thank´you star! Wish you a good end of weekend as well! Juliette Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:50:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#889 Hello Juliette, i'm also interested in doing a master in law in china... I haven't been able to find any clear information.. but apparentely there is foreigners university in shnaghai.... but the sie doesn't work verywell and i haven't been able to get it wll... where are u from? and wherewould u liek to study and hat exactely??? did u have a look at the university on honk kong? they surely have courses in english.. Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:26:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#890 Hi kikko! Yes I ahve seen the Shanghai program but you are right, the website looks a little unprofessionsal and also the Program is said to be lasting for 3 years! I have had a look at several of the Chinese sites, as you say, the 2 LLMs in Hong Kong are apparantly comparable to western LLMs and designed for international students. Apart from that, I only found the Temple LLM in Beijing (Tsinghua Univ.), which is a US style LLM as far as I can see. But I amnot sure if its designed for Chinese students rather than for international ones. I am from France, how about you? Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:50:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#900 hello Juliette! i'm from italy.... Personaly i'm really undecided.. it's really hard to understand what's the best place to study in china (or asia in general). I've been to hong kong, singapore, shanghai, beijin and many other chinse city (as a tourist).... and if i should choose a city where i'de like to live for a year..uhmm well maybe i'de choose shanghai or honk kong.. beijing is nice too.. maybe there are more foreigners then shanghai becouse of the embassies.. but shanghai is the financial center of china Honk kong is great.... but looks like everything is moving to shnaghai right now.. so i'm scared to go to the wrong place.. well..as u can see i'm kinda lost and undecided.. i was even thinking on doing a master in australia..or the sates... but i i really like asia and i think it's a good moment to understand how things works over there... well.. let me know more about u.. what did u study exactely , how old are u? and what do u want to study ? i'm gradiated in law and i'm practicing as a lawyer.. but i'm looking for something different..that's why i want to do a manster.... my email is kikkocappuccio@yahoo.com write soon chicco Sun, 13 Feb 2005 01:33:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#907 Hi kikki! I also liked Shanghai and Hong Kong very much, but I think you really have to bear in mind that Hong Kong is still like a different country and very western. As you people probably witnessed yourself people there all speak English and are in general very weestern-orientated. I therefore think that the programs in Hong Kong are better for foreigners, actually I do not really think that any foreigners participate in the other programs in Shanghai and Beijing at all, at least thats what a Chinese girl in another board said. Singapore is also very western as you will remember so right now I am undecided between HK an Sing. I have recently graduated and would like to work in an international law firm or company with strong China links, after all its the market of the future... juliette Sun, 13 Feb 2005 01:38:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#908 Sorry, with the 'other girl' I meant of course 'Star' from this very board... Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:35:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#929 Juliette, yes i also belive taht china is the biggest market in the wolrd. And u don't need to look at the future.. already now it's a huuuge market. I don't understand why people is so scared of china.. I want to do it becosue i think that not many people knows how things works like in china.... About sing and hkk... i donno wich one would i choos.e.. i think honk kong is probabily better.. becosue it's part of china anyway..even if it has a special status. Singapore is an indipendent state.... but on one side i think it would be very nice to live there too... so i donno... have u msn? we could try to chat sometimes and talk about it in a better way... by the way.. u ddin't tell me how oldu are... chicco Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:00:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#930 Juliette, i just had a look at the University of Hong Kong site.. they also have masters in lkaw tought in english... unfortunately the dead line for application..is monday 28 february..... THe city university of hong kong looks good too, but the University of hing kong sounds more like the official leading univerity in hong kong... what do u think? got any information about it? my msn is carisma1000@hotmail.com yahoo: kikkocappuccio@yahoo.com i want to confront with u my informations and ideas.. i need to make a decision and it's helpful to confront with someone else. Chicco Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:17:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#939 did u apply to any llm yet? could u live your email , if u don't mind?? or just send me an email..so we can easly communicate Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:29:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#942 Hi kikko, sorry for the delay. No, so far I still have not applied, you? I am 26 to answer you rquestion and I dont have mns or yahoo but I think if we continue on this board its also nice and helpful for other people who also want to do a China LLM. I also heard that the University of Hong Kong has a very good reputation but I think both are quite good. I havent checked the application deadline, did you mean that the deadline for the LLM is at the end of Feb or for another master? That would mean a lot of hurry! :-( I hope we can still make it.. Have you checked the fees by the way? Are both unis the same? regards Juliette Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:40:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#955 Hello Juliette, i also think that both the universities are good (hong kong university and hong kong city university). The dead line for the HKU is 28 febryary!!! so we need to hurry up... the dead line for the HKCU is 25 june if i'm not wrong.. though, they have a "prior in tempore ,potior in jure" system.. wich means,, that the first u apply more possibilites u have to be enrolled in.... About the singapore uni.. wlel..the dead line was 31 jenuary..so we already missed it!!! I haven't applyed to any university yet... I really hope i'll be able to send all the papers in time for the hku.. i don't have a toefl certification..though i will do it as soon as possible... i have no problem in getting 2 letters of reference... i think we still need other papers..but i don't rememebr wich once... Of course we can talk here.... but i thought it was more effective if we could chat in real time... anyway.. this is not a problem. It's good to know that u are same age as me.... And it's good to know u are a french too.. becosue our the legal systems are very similars... and i was wondering how it would be to study in a common law system... By the way.. i read on the uni site that if we didn't study in a common law country.. we need to take a special course in common law... but i'm not sure if this is obbligatory or not.. i sent them an email last fryday.. but they didn't answer yet... Where do u think to apply??? only hong kong? are u working right now? Chicco Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:47:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#968 Juliette... they didn't answer my email yet... Did u choose wich LLm apply for? I'm not sure if i want to do the chinese law one or the financial and corporate llm... they are both based on chinse\asian legal system.... and u can choose to do courses from other llm..... wich one are u thinking to apply for? have u a toefl or ielst certification?? Chicco Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:10:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#969 Hi kikko, hm thats bad nwes, we really have to hurry with the applications. I have decided to aplly to both City and Univ o HK, Singapore is already gone as you said so no use. Yes, I have got a TOEFL test but I think you shouldn't worry about the applications, I think if you send enything in time that will be fine, after all they are not Harvard and they earn money with their LLM students so I am sure they will accept late documents. So what I will do is send the documents I have now and send the missing stuff later. I havent decided on the specialization yet, what are you gonna do? Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:25:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#971 HELLo! i donno yet.... if i got it right... the have 5 specialization... and u have to choose 8 modules... at least 6 from the specified track..and the other 2 , if u want, from the other tracks.. Or u can do the llmwith a general specialization..wich means u can choose the 8 modules from all the llm they have.... I donno yet wich one to choose.... i'm reading the specifications of each module... and i really have to hurry up.. .. what about the reference letters?? are u gonna apply on line? what will u exactely send ? Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:29:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#973 by the way.. i am on line right now...and will be on lat least 1.5 hours mre Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:56:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#998 Juliette, i am preparing the applications.... i still haven't decided wich specialization... i'm not sure if i want to do the chinese law or the financial and corporative law..... or evne the genral one.. malster of laws.... what do u think? did u understand how the general once works like? How did u do for the reference letters?? will u seld them in a uniqe parcel.. or will u send them separately??' let me know what have u done till know and how are u filling up the application... I am also applaing for both the unis... but for now i'm concentrated on the hong kong university.. becosue the dead line is on 28 february regards Chicco Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:58:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#1000 Kikko, sorry for not coming back earlier, I do not have internet access at home at the moment.. I am still waiting for my letters of recommendation so I have not sent anything yet but I hope to be able to send them tomorrow. I have not decided on the specialization but I think I will go for the Chinese and Comparative Law Stream. By the way, I am not 100% percent sure that I will go to HK, I also applied to some other schools so I still have to make up my mind.. Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:05:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#1001 Hello, i haven't applied yet too... i will get my letters next tuesday and sedn everything with a courier. i was thinking on appling to a master in australia too... but i realy need to understand what i want to do. The chinese option sounds at least interesting and in prospective looks the best chooise. The fact i donìt have a toefl certification may be a problem... but unfortunately i can't get it befre next may.. wich is the first avieble examination they have planned this year. I'm thinking on going for a few months to an english speaking country to improve the language... About the specialization of the master... i don't remember any Chinese and comparative law stream... are u sure??' I think they have 5 streams: Master of laws (general), master of law in chinese law, master o flaw in finacial and comparative law, master of law in human rights, master of law in thecnologies and something... wich universities didu apply too? Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:30:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#1015 Juliette, i found another master in law taght in english... at the tsinghua university in beijing... the course last one year and it cost 18.000 us dollars accomodation included... I found another LLM in shanghai too.. but it last for 2.5 years.. i wrote them an email.. hope they will answer soon.. Where did u apply til now? http://www.tsinghua.edu.cn/docsn/fxy/english/llmPrgm.htm Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:02:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#1016 Hi kikko, yes those are the two programs I pointed out to you earlier in this board. You can check Star's answer and description about the tsinghua program: its actually a LLM program by Temple university (USA) but appearantly more for Chinese students. I mixed up City and HK uni with the specializations you are right, still havent sent my docs, still waiting for 1 letter of recom. I have applied to UK LLMs in London apart from HK Sat, 19 Feb 2005 12:40:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#1032 Juliette. they have 2 different programme, one with the temple university.. and it's mostly for chinese students and it's about amreican-international law.. and the other one is for non-chinese students and it's about chinese law. I will apply for both the unis in hong kong and at the one in beijin too... I'm considering on applying to others universityies too, but i donno wich one yet.. Did u translated your academic transcripts into english?? and what about the letters of recom.?? are these in english? I will apply on tuesday when, hopefully, i will get both the letters of recom... I think that i will choose asia at the end... it looks so much more interesting... Have u been to beijin??? the city is huge.. not exacteoly what i consider a beautiful city.. but it's charming and it's booming... though in winter time it must be really cold!!! Honk kong has surely a better quality of life and it's very western... i think i'de like to live in both the places.. i wouldn't mind if it's hk or beijing.... I would love shanghai actually... but the only LLM for foreigners i did find.. it last 2.5 years.. too much for me eheheh!!! What score do u have at the toefl? Chicco Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:36:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#1033 Hi Kikko, i only found the LLM for Chinese studentswhich on US LAw, wher did you see the other one? My letters of recommendations are in English, yes. But maybe its ok if you write a translation of yours and send it with it.. My TOEFL is not that good, better not ask ;-) Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:09:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#1035 Juliette, have a look at this link: http://www.tsinghua.edu.cn/docsn/fxy/english/llmPrgm.htm I will apply to Honk Kong university, Hong Kong city university.. and probabily the one in beijing too.. though.. it's on his first edition and it's mostly related to chinse law.. and i think i'de prefere soemthing more related to international comemrcial law with an asian-chinese relation. So.. at the end.. where are u appling?' i still haven't choose all the Modulese i'de like to o.. did u choose the 8 modulese for each programm ? Chicco Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:21:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#1070 Juliette, i am ready to send my application.. I am applyinh on line... to day i will send the 2 letters of raccomandation and the transcript of my degree... what about u?? I am applying to 3 masters at the Hing kong univ... LLM, LLM in chinese law, and LLM in Corp. and FInanc. Law... then i will apply also for the city univ and the tsinghuo Univ... so.. did u choose what modules u intend to study? Chicco Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:33:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#1156 Hi, Kikko, I sent my applications finally, I hope the postal stamp is enough for the deadline! I chose the same subjects as you, didnt have much time to think about it and your choices seemed pretty good.. Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:12:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#1157 Juliette, i have some news... Right today i went to a conference about china...and i talked to the directors of the italian trade chamber in beijing and hong kong.. they sujjested me to do the LLM in Beijing.. for a series of reasons i don't have time to explain right now ( but i will later). It's been a very nice conference and i have much clearer ideas now... The director of the italian trade chumber in hong kong told me to send him an email about the programmes of the masters... he'll be back to hong kong on monday.. he'll have a look and suggest me what in his opinion could be better... I am applying to the city univ. too and the beijing university (tsinghuo or something). I'll let u know the news... wich subject did u choose?? at the end i did apply for 2 masters.. LLM and LLMCL.... Chicco Sun, 06 Mar 2005 19:15:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#1501 Juliette, is everything all right? I did exchange a few emails with the director of the italian chamber of commerce in hong kong... He said the hong kong university is a very good one... He first suggested me Beijing... but then he said HK uni is very good too.. did u choose what to do? where would u like to go? Sat, 12 Mar 2005 02:38:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#1681 Hi kikko, Looks like HKU's LLM in Chinese Law is well established and has already has a research base. The LLM at Tsinghua has only recently been setup... and in fact 2005 will be its first intake. I reckon there'd be more research papers written in English about Chinese Law at HKU than Tsinghua..... So unless you're proficient in both English and Mandrain, HKU is still a better bet! Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:53:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#1691 Kevin, thanks for your answer. Of course the Hong Kong University is much more prepared to have foreigner students, but i also think that hing kong is not china... and i think this master is a good opportunity not only to study and understand the chinese law, but also to get involved in chinese culture, society and language. It's a good opportunity to make new contacts with local Law firm, businessmen and so on... I am not sure yet if i'll do the master in law in HK or in Beijing... i'm sure it's gonna be great in both the cities... Have u done a Master in Law in china\Hk ? Chicco Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:41:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#1709 Hi kikko, Actually, I am in the same position as you are. Am from SIngapore. Can't really decide between the LL.M at HKU or Tsinghua. Am still doing more research on the courses offered. But most of my colleagues know of HKU much better as it is already well established in the area of CHinese Law. I think Tsinghua is better known for its engineering school right? Not sure :) Well, I think what u said about absorbing the culture in Beijing makes sense too.... Sigh..... still can't decide... Sun, 27 Mar 2005 19:53:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#2279 I am not sure whether or not foreign law students like you guys are qualified for the bar examination in China( I guess not). So, considering your future career plan, I would encourage you to apply to HKU(the only good law school in HK ) to study the Chinese law. there are several reasons. 1, HKU is the dream place where the west and the east meet, and it has a closer relation with the mainland China than Singapore.2, the law firms in HK have a better reputation than these of other places(like Magic Circle and Top tire law firms ) to deal with the FDI, IPO, MBO and the like in China, which means you can find it easier to land a well paid job in a decent law firm. 3, presently, lawyers in HK can deal with the cases in Mainland China, that's why they are called consultant other than lawyer. However, as the CIPA works, this situation will change soon. the international lawyer's future is bright!^_^ Sun, 27 Mar 2005 20:04:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#2281 sorry for making a mistake in my third point, the lawyer in HK CAN NOT conduct the cases from MC, coz they r HK lawyers not the Chinese Lawyers, which will change soon after the CIPA goes into effect. PS: u can pursue the JD offered bt city U of HK to be qualified as a HK lawyer. Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:31:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#2293 Hi everyone, I'm an American JD who wants to start an LLM program in Chinese law (taught in English) later this year. Last December I applied to the National University of Singapore's program. Right now I'm preparing an application to Tsinghua University in Beijing, which is due May 10. I've never been to Singapore, but the program sound interesting. Plus, it offers full scholarships to foreigners like myself. I've visited Tsinghua 1-1/2 years ago when I was living in China. The campus is beautiful! It's just down the street from the Summer Palace. Although Tsinghua is in a city of 15 million people, it has an idyllic campus. I think it would be a great place to study Chinese law. And the Chinese government offers full scholarships to foreigners. See for more details. Anyway, I should hear back from NUS in April and Tsinghua in June. I hope I get admitted to both with full scholarships. If so, then I'm unsure how I'll choose which one to attend. I guess I'll have to wait to cross that bridge later. In the meantime, I'd appreciate your comments and info on these programs. Thanks. Best regards, Roy Wed, 13 Apr 2005 02:22:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#3579 I got into that program at NUS. I've looked into Tsinghua. In short, don't do either. Numerous expert scholars in the US strongly advised me not to do either. Practitioners in China said the same. What alternatives did they give me? Sharing relevant words depends on what your goals are. My goals are to practice law in China. Practitioners told me that relevant skills are gained in practice. The best thing to do, they said, was first to be fluent in reading and writing Chinese. Then to practice law in the US for 5-10 years and become an expert in some field relevant to practice in Asia (something related to business and corporate law). The scholars also said that I need to be fluent in Mandarin Chinese. Then they said that the best programs are at the best schools in China and the United States. In case you didn't know, some of the best LAW schools in China include, as I understand them to be (in ranking): Beijing (Peking) U, Renmin U, Fudan, East China, Nanjing, and Xiamen and Zhongshan follow somewhere not far from this stratum. Tsinghua law school doesn't have a good reputation. It's a very new school and is groping for ranking and funding. My Chinese friends who graduated from there have a really hard time finding jobs. ANY jobs. NUS law school doesn't have the best reputation outside of Singapore, and has a poor reputation outside of Asia. People feel that the department isn't a serious academic institution, and is very politicized. If you don't speak Chinese, and don't plan on learning: first of all, I'm really curious why you think a LLM in Chinese law is useful at all. Because you can't do anything with it--neither teach nor practice. But, you may nevertheless find the best program to be at Hong Kong University. I highly recommend it (for objective reasons). And even the program at City University of Hong Kong is better than the ones you have considered. Neither require Chinese language ability. If you want to learn Chinese, the best programs are the Inter-University Program (IUP) at Tsinghua, the International Chinese Language Program (ICLP) at National Taiwan U, Princeton at Beijing Normal, CET in Harbin, and FALCON at Cornell (please note that I didn't mention the Hopkins program at Nanjing, nor the Cambridge program in Beijing). All the best! Wed, 13 Apr 2005 02:57:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#3586 This is odd. This is my third reply to this post. In summary of my other replies: I thought about doing it, but after every practitioner and scholar I talked to told me not to, I decided against it. It might satisfy your pride to go to a well-known schoo, but it will hurt you financially and will be a waste of time professionally. Both the Tsinghua and NUS law departments have poor reputations, even if the campus in general has a good one. The students I know from those departments can't find jobs. Contact me for more info, if you are interested: spetrini@u.washington.edu Best, zoticogrillo Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:19:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#7336 HI every one My name is Saif , from Dubai , I am searching for Master in law program in one of the recognized University in Beijing , which i like to have it in English either by research or part time mode of study , if any one got an idea please help me , email : baba_saif@hotmail.com Thu, 01 Sep 2005 08:21:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#7530 It seems that everyone has the same questions as I did, so here it goes. I am an American so didnt really know where to begin my research on Chinese and Hong Kong LL.M. programs. I have a cousin who lives in Beijing and a friend who lives in Hong Kong (who is also an attorney working in a US firm). As an American (or non-Mandarin speaking) person, Hong Kong is a better bet for many reasons: 1. The culture in Hong Kong is much easier to adapt to than in Beijing. Also, you MUST speak Mandarin to survive in Beijing. 2. The programs in Hong Kong are much more established and known in the area. Both programs in Hong Kong are good, but HKU is better regarded. 3. The program in Beijing has only been existance for, well, not even a year, as 2005 is the 1st year the program started. 4. In addition, the program in Beijing is geared towards Chinese doing business in the US (inbound transactions). The Hong Kong programs are geared towards foreigners doing business with China (outbound transactions). Hope that this helps! Thu, 08 Sep 2005 12:13:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#7647 The information of LL.M in Chinese Law for non-Chinese law students listed below. http://www.tsinghua.edu.cn/docsn/fxy/english/llmPrgm.htm LL.M. Program In Chinese Law: An Overview The LL.M. Program In Chinese Law at Tsinghua is the first formal legal educational program ever offered in China for foreign law students and professionals. As a country with a rich cultural heritage and the largest economic market in the world, China ranks first in Foreign Direct Investment for several years and is the fourth largest import/export country worldwide. To ensure sustainable social economic progress, the country has established a complex legal infrastructure by enacting the laws and regulations on a historic scale. Under the newly formed framework of globalization, Chinese law becomes a necessary knowledge for those who have business, culture, academic and political encounters with China. To meet the increasing demand for understanding Chinese laws, Tsinghua Law School launches a LL.M. Program in Chinese law for non-Chinese speaking law students and legal professionals. The program is scheduled to commence in September 2005. An applicant must meet the following requirements: • A J.D. or LL.B. or equivalent law degree; • Enrollment in a J.D. program; or • Qualification to practice law. Tue, 13 Sep 2005 02:51:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#7716 Hello, I am a law school graduate from Montreal (Canada) and I am interested in doing the LL.M. program in Chinese Law at Tsinghua University in Beijing next year. Is there anyone who has already done the program or is currently doing it? I would like to know how it is? How are the classes? Is it well organized? Is it worth the money? Is it possible to learn mandarin at the same time? How is the class spirit? Thank you in advance! Henri Sun, 18 Feb 2007 04:34:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#24645 There are two programs in Beijing that offer LLMs in English. Beijing University Tsinghua University BeiDa's is 2 years and Tsinghua's is 1. But before you choose the shorter one, be advised that the Ministry of Education requires that all LLM programs be two years long, therefore, there is a strong question regarding Tsinghua's program's credibility. However, it may be accredited, I'm not sure. Do not rely on my opinion. I would also have to respectfully disagree with Zoticogrillo. What you say is true in the past. That is no longer the case. Firms are on the search for new, young attorneys with a handle on Chinese law and Chinese culture. Obviously, being fluent is excellent, but being proficient will also be good enough. Firms have changed their position b/c China is growing and outbound Chinese deals are up. Therefore, a lot of U.S. firms in U.S. offices that are now finding they are in need of young attorneys who can both handle domestic transactional practice and also be of service when the firm lands a Chinese client looking to do an outbound deal. As for working in China, the firms are growing their China offices faster than they can stock them. Therefore, what you say about having to have worked 5-10 yrs in a large international firm is no longer the case. The firms want first year, second year, etc. associates to do due diligence, to keep up with the grind work, and also to be able to handle themselves around Chinese clients. Before, when the satellite offices were 3-4 attorneys, yes, you need to be partner status with 10 years of transactional under your belt. But, now the firms are 15+ and growing and they need junior associates with Chinese culture/language skills because there is just so much work to be done. For example, OMM is expanding its China offices and K&E opened a new China office. And not just work in China, but, as I mentioned, work in the U.S. b/c of the outbound deals. Firms are now willing to train you in transactional work b/c you will not only be a great transactional attorney, you'll be a great one who knows Chinese and Chinese law. However, the same rules apply even if you have an LLM in Chinese law for these BigLaw firms. You still need to be from a top law school (meaning top 25) and top of your class (meaning 10-25%, or at the very least top third + journal experience--probably law review). You need to demonstrate that you can handle all the work they throw at you and that means domestic transactional work and Chinese transactional work. If you don't have the "pedigree" they will doubt that you can handle the basic transactional work regardless of your added bells/whistles of Chinese culture/language skills. I highly recommend getting your LLM in Chinese law. You will learn so much about the ins and outs of Chinese law, business wo/men, culture, etc. If you want to decide between Tsinghua and BeiDa, I suggest you do some research on the schools (although if you ask me, people in China and in the U.S. BeiDa's name recognition for law far surpasses Tsinghua's). Tue, 27 Feb 2007 00:30:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#25111 Hello, I am a law school graduate from Montreal (Canada) and I am interested in doing the LL.M. program in Chinese Law at Tsinghua University in Beijing next year. Is there anyone who has already done the program or is currently doing it? I would like to know how it is? How are the classes? Is it well organized? Is it worth the money? Is it possible to learn mandarin at the same time? How is the class spirit? Thank you in advance! Henri I think it depends on what goal do you wanna achieve. Learning Mandarin at Tsinghua is a piece of cake. Maybe, many local Chinese students wanna learn English or French from you at the same time. But pls never assume the quality of the Tsinghua LLM based on your Quebec legal education experience. The Mainland China LLM programs are less established than those in H.K. Tue, 27 Feb 2007 00:48:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#25112 There are two programs in Beijing that offer LLMs in English. Beijing University Tsinghua University BeiDa's is 2 years and Tsinghua's is 1. But before you choose the shorter one, be advised that the Ministry of Education requires that all LLM programs be two years long, therefore, there is a strong question regarding Tsinghua's program's credibility. However, it may be accredited, I'm not sure. Do not rely on my opinion. I would also have to respectfully disagree with Zoticogrillo. What you say is true in the past. That is no longer the case. Firms are on the search for new, young attorneys with a handle on Chinese law and Chinese culture. Obviously, being fluent is excellent, but being proficient will also be good enough. Firms have changed their position b/c China is growing and outbound Chinese deals are up. Therefore, a lot of U.S. firms in U.S. offices that are now finding they are in need of young attorneys who can both handle domestic transactional practice and also be of service when the firm lands a Chinese client looking to do an outbound deal. As for working in China, the firms are growing their China offices faster than they can stock them. Therefore, what you say about having to have worked 5-10 yrs in a large international firm is no longer the case. The firms want first year, second year, etc. associates to do due diligence, to keep up with the grind work, and also to be able to handle themselves around Chinese clients. Before, when the satellite offices were 3-4 attorneys, yes, you need to be partner status with 10 years of transactional under your belt. But, now the firms are 15+ and growing and they need junior associates with Chinese culture/language skills because there is just so much work to be done. For example, OMM is expanding its China offices and K&E opened a new China office. And not just work in China, but, as I mentioned, work in the U.S. b/c of the outbound deals. Firms are now willing to train you in transactional work b/c you will not only be a great transactional attorney, you'll be a great one who knows Chinese and Chinese law. However, the same rules apply even if you have an LLM in Chinese law for these BigLaw firms. You still need to be from a top law school (meaning top 25) and top of your class (meaning 10-25%, or at the very least top third + journal experience--probably law review). You need to demonstrate that you can handle all the work they throw at you and that means domestic transactional work and Chinese transactional work. If you don't have the "pedigree" they will doubt that you can handle the basic transactional work regardless of your added bells/whistles of Chinese culture/language skills. I highly recommend getting your LLM in Chinese law. You will learn so much about the ins and outs of Chinese law, business wo/men, culture, etc. If you want to decide between Tsinghua and BeiDa, I suggest you do some research on the schools (although if you ask me, people in China and in the U.S. BeiDa's name recognition for law far surpasses Tsinghua's). I think you're not wrong. But on the outound side, a big issue is the Chinese preference of flat fee structure for its overseas transactions and on the inbound side, a big issue is that the more you understand Chinese law the more frustrated you could be when acting for foreign clients doing business in China. Tue, 27 Feb 2007 01:09:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#25117 well, chinese companies' resistance to paying high fees are well known. However, they still need attorneys and they're acknowledging that slowly. I've spoken with several large firms in the U.S. who have Chinese clients and they've affirmed this notion. I wouldn't be surprised if the fees Chinese clients are willing to pay start increasing as the business starts increasing. Also, if you work for a BigLaw firm, your salary is going to be the same whether you have Chinese clients or U.S. clients. Your statement that the more you understand Chines law, the more frustrated you could be when acting for foreign clients doing business in China is an age old issue. Do you counsel your client regarding guanxi? do you tell them what the statutory laws state? do you tell them about the trade custom? all of these are problems that attorneys are encountering in China. If there is a law that says you can only build your building 10 stories high but all the buildings are 15 stories high and the officials haven't stopped anyone--how do you counsel your client? These are definitely concrete issues, but as far as getting a job--I think an LLM from mainland China is going to be worth its weight in gold--especially when you make the contacts you do who can tell you the ins and outs of the workings of chinese law. An outside attorney is going to be at a great disadvantage. Tue, 27 Feb 2007 03:54:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#25128 Thanks for these very interesting comments! But if I say that more and more US-trained Chinese lawyers (or dual qualified lawyers) will be able to take over and handle overseas transactions for Chinese companies (sometimes in conjunction with small/medium local firms in the particular jurisdictions), on a low flat fee basis, do you believe it or not? And if I say that many insiders really understand the ins and outs of the workings of Chinese law do not reside in mainland China, do you believe it or not? I only advise my clients how to get their deals through and how to achieve their commerical objectives in China, of course on a concrete project basis. They all know the importance of guanxi and the limitations of blackletter laws in China. Tue, 27 Feb 2007 06:04:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#25135 Tom says that firms are looking for people with only a general knowledge of Chinese and Chinese law. The contradicts what I have found by surveying attorneys and China law experts on the issue. You can find my survey in the Chinalaw archive (search Tsinghua LLM). http://hermes.gwu.edu/archives/chinalaw.html Such a comment also contradicts common reason. If one were to observe the large, and increasing, number of Chinese licensed attorneys coming to the US to earn JDs and LLMs at top institutions, one would guess that these attorneys are pushing many foreign attorneys out of the market. This is consistent with my survey findings. Attorneys compete with each other on the basis of professional competence. Why would any firm choose an American with a JD and an elementary level of Chinese, when they can get a Chinese attorney with all the knowledge of a JD graduate and a NY license. Doesn't make sense. Your musing are interesting, but show us the money. Why do you believe the way you do? Wed, 28 Feb 2007 00:26:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#25196 I think that your argument that firms would choose a foreign attorney with Chinese knowledge over an American J.D. with less Chinese knowledge has some merit, but I don't believe this to be the case. First off, I have spoken to several hiring partners (both Chinese and American) at U.S. firms. Both have told me they prefer an American J.D. because of the analytical abilities that come from a common law country. I've heard this from some Chinese attorneys as well. Second, a Chinese hiring partner working at a U.S. Vault10 law firm said that has problems with having to always re-edit work from Chinese attorneys (in terms of English) and he found it great that a U.S. attorney (with native fluency in English) and analytic skills will be spending time in China. He also expressed that the fact I will be living in China for two years to really experience Beijing was invaluable (he also offered me an interview, which I have coming up). He also told me that it was really difficult for him to get a job, but he was in the top 3% of his class so that's how he got his foot in the door. I think there are several forums that speak to how hard it is for a foreign attorney with an LLM to get a job in a U.S. firm. I think those are worth checking out. Third, I have landed several interviews at Vault100 firms (and just got a job offer today via email) because what set me apart from tons of qualified applicants was because I also am getting an LLM in Chinese law. I think that's the proof you were looking for right there. I have two more interviews set up at firms that rank in the top 10 (according to Vault) for the very same reason I'm telling you. As a U.S. attorney, graduating from a top 20 law school even with honors and law review, I still didn't cut it when I want to work at some of the top 10 Vault firms. Not when they have people from the #1, #2, #3, etc. schools wanting the same exact jobs with honors and law review. I know that for one of these interviews, I probably wouldn't had qualified just based on my U.S. degree without the LLM (in fact, I was pretty much told this outright). Why would you hire a Chinese attorney who can only work on your Chinese deals when you can hire a U.S. attorney who can work on both your domestic and Chinese deals? There are pros and cons from each side of the table, but honestly, if the U.S. attorney speaks/reads Mandarin and undertsands Chinese culture (whether it be because he/she is an ABC or equivalent or has spent much time in China), I think the gap closes quite a bit and the U.S. attorney starts to look pretty attractive. A U.S. attorney has knowledge of both Chinese and American law (albeit the Chinese law is not as strong as a Chinese attorney), whereas a Chinese attorney only has knowledge of Chinese law (and a one year LLM in the states teaches you nothing--it's basically a prereq to sit for the NY bar). Also, a Chinese attorney who receives a J.D. at a top U.S. school is not part of this comparison. I would assume that a Chinese attorney who spent three years for a J.D. developing analytical abilities at a top U.S. law school would be more valuable than 1) a Chinese attorney with a U.S. LLM or 2) a U.S. attorney with an LLM in Chinese law. I am only comparing the latter two. While it is true that there is an increasing amount of Chinese attorneys coming to get their J.D., there aren't very many right now that have graduated. The point is folks, get your foot in the door and be one of the few and offer something others don't before everyone has what you have. p.s. I agree that a U.S. attorney needs more than an "elementary" knowledge of Chinese. Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:00:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#25199 Thanks for your thorough reply. One thing I have heard during my own interviews, and seen from my own experience, is that working with a firm that already had a branch in mainland China is the best way to land a job in China. Most of those firms are big Vault 100s. Sounds like you are well on your way. I have heard some of the same things about Chinese attorneys. Reliable English writing can be an issue. Professional quality is indeed a very serious issue in Chinese law firms as well. However, considering the large number of quality attorneys from China, and the hightening level of competition for legal jobs in China, generalizations are not that helpful. Unless you a fluent (reading and writing) in legal Chinese (which is quite a strange beast at times), I think you'll find yourself relying on your Chinese speaking legal assistants a great deal. Can you imagine what would happen if that assistant were to get an American JD (perhaps at a top 5 law school, or a top 100), become fluent in English writing, and had some time as a corporate/transactional associate in the US? I think you'll understand me more once you have experience working in mainland China with such an assistant. You place a great deal of importance on the ranking of a school, and that assumes that "ranking" (done by whomever) measures a clear difference in educational quality in most cases. You also state that many Chinese JDs have not yet graduated, which makes me wonder whether you are relying on anecdotal experience or outside data. That's great that you will be spending two years in China. I assume that's where you'll be earning your LLM. I caution you to do some thorough research on the program you are pursuing before sinking the money and time into it. I assume you already have done a fair amount of this, but based on my personal experience, I wouldn't feel right without cautioning you. What I have not yet learned is what the situation is in Taiwan. I wonder why it is that there are not more foreign attorneys practicing there. And I wonder what shortcomings arise from assuming that the legal environment in mainland might follow the same trajectory. Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:09:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#25201 You know, from reading everything and thinking about this situation, we are non-traditional attorneys and it's always going to be tough for us to break the mold. The path into a BigLaw firm has always been--> good grades --> summer assosicate --> get offer --> entry level. So, unfortunately for us coming outside of that path, there isn't an equation that says U.S. J.D. + China LLM = BigLaw Firm Job. I think it depends on the person and what angles you can market yourself at. But I do disagree that firms want someone with 5-10 years under their belt. (I saw your post before going to BeiDa and that seemed to be the general consensus. For some reason, things changed in the past year and firms that weren't interseted in talking to me for an informational interview when I told them I was going to get my BeiDa LLM are interested in talking to me about a job just one semester in... strange, isn't it? M&A and private equity have gone through the roof in China and Chinese outbound deals have doubled...I think this has the most to do with it). Yes, it would be scary if your legal assistant went and got a J.D. But by that time, you'll be a fourth year associate and they would have just graduated. My point is, get in early while you can. When Chinese attorneys are getting J.D.s and tons of U.S. attorneys are getting Chinese LLMs, you'll already be a senior associate if not a junior partner. People have made a fortune in business ventures or inventions on the pure fact that they were first. You think the paper clip is that ingenious of an idea? or a magnet paper weight to hold those paper clips? but these people were probably shitting in tall cotton when the inventions were patented. There are senior partners at firms who have been with the firm for 25 years and, since the competition has gotten so hot and the firms have grown so much, they probably wouldn't be called in for a screening interview based on their old law school rankings/grades. I place a lot of emphasis on rankings, not because I buy into them (I honestly think that ranking a school 50% based on reputation/prestige is a crock of shit. There are many schools in the midwest that would be ranked much much higher if they were in cities like NY, LA, etc.) but because firms do. And the reason firms buy into them is because clients do. Clients want to see Harvard, Stanford, Columbia on the website of a firm they shell out $400/hour for. And believe me, I know plenty of students from Berekely, UCLA, etc. that make horrible attorneys. And good students don't make good attorneys. But bad students don't always make good attorneys either. So, who are you going to pay $160K a year to? the student that is more likely to be a better attorney, and firms use the ranking of the school and the GPA to figure that out. I have no idea what's going on in Taiwan! It would be interesting if you posted on here to update us! Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:45:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#25202 Job security is always an issue. Not being able to go to the source law (much of the most important regulations are passed on the provincial, administrative and local level, which are often never translated) or being able to read the only valid version of the contract (in Chinese according to Chinese law) pretty much cuts your competence down to almost zero in China. Since even in the US a huge number of associates never make partner, such a huge gap in one's professional skills such as not knowing the language fluently makes one's professional prospects extremely unpredictable. The reason why you need US experience first is otherwise you can't practice law in China as a foreign advisor, according to Chinese law. The good thing about being flexible and not overly invested in one country is that you can easily move to another Asian jurisdiction should something come up. A LLM in a unique system such as that of China's might counter that. You mentioned ranking as an element of your argument. I'm not sure how your reply addresses that previous argument and its assumptions. I'm sure that you are already a member of Don Clark's Chinalaw listserv. It's a great resource for addressing some of the issues you bring up. Thu, 01 Mar 2007 00:32:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#25322 I believe my reply squarely addressed my previous argument and "its assumptions" regarding rankings. I guess my response question is: how have your arguments addressed your own assumptions? You seem to have your theory and I have mine, although I disagree with your view point, I do so respectfully as you have seemingly put in a lot of thought and effort into it. However, I suspect that most of your opinion is based on what others have said on the survey you sent out a while ago on the CLNET and not based on your own professional experiences. Believe me, I was rather apprehensive (just like you) but my gut told me to go and it worked out for me. I just wanted to point out to others that might read this board that what you claim firms are looking for is not necessarily true for all firms. Your comments were rather disparaging of the marketability of a Chinese LLM and yet couched in a very black and white manner. The proof for me is that I landed a job at a BigLaw firm and have interviews from firms that weren't interested in talking to me when I was a 2L or 3L. And I've spoken to hiring partners who weren't on CLNET and didn't answer your survey who think much differently and work for global firms with 3 Chinese offices. I think the fact that not all associates make partners does not in any way, shape or form strengthen your argument. What does that have to do with getting or not getting an LLM in China? Chinese attorneys don't make partners at U.S. firms any more than U.S. attorneys--that's why we're called COGS for the first 6-7 years of our career. What "gap" are you taling about? Is it just lacking language fluency? An attorney's "professional skills" are not limited to second language fluency--although it is undoubtedly important, what makes you think a Chinese attorney or a U.S. attorney who is fluent in Chinese is going to have a better chance at making partner? What makes you think that a Chinese attorney who was not educated in a common law country doesn't have a "huge gap" in his or her "professional skills"? Do you really think having language fluency will make up this gap for the Chinese attorneys so that he or she will then be made partner? It's going to be a case by case basis and your blanket statement that law firms don't want U.S. attorneys with Chinese LLMs unless they also have 5-10 years of transactional experience at a BigLaw firm is not true for many BigLaw firms. Thu, 01 Mar 2007 01:39:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#25333 The key point is that you need to speak the language to be effective. It sounds like you've got things pretty well mapped out. That's great. Best of luck to you. Fri, 02 Mar 2007 01:04:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#25475 Off topic, one of the many concerns regarding U.S. or foreign offices in China is that Chinese clients don't want to pay as much as foreign clients. Here's a little blurb from New York Lawyer (the original story is from a California journal) "Over the past decade, scores of U.S. firms have planted flags in China, but many quickly discovered that while work was abundant, profits were more elusive. Fierce competition drove down billing rates, leading to wide-scale discounting as firms sought to gain market share. While discounting is still common, law firm leaders say it's easing, especially for more complex work. That's partly because the Chinese economy has been on a tear, with a flood of foreign investment and related capital markets work, and a spike in the number of Chinese-based companies going public on the Shanghai exchange. The value of Chinese stocks has more than doubled in the last year alone." Good news for us! I know many China offices are now expanding--hopefully it will continue this way. Sun, 04 Mar 2007 09:32:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#25699 In case you didn't know, some of the best LAW schools in China include, as I understand them to be (in ranking): Beijing (Peking) U, Renmin U, Fudan, East China, Nanjing, and Xiamen and Zhongshan follow somewhere not far from this stratum. I got this from a friend: "For the benefit of those on the list who do not read Chinese, below is a complete translation of the 2007 rankings: http://edu.sina.com.cn/focus/utop.html Top Universities: 2007: 1. Tsinghua University 2. Beijing University 3. Zhejiang University 4. Shanghai Jiaotong University 5. Nanjing University 6. Fudan University (Shanghai) 7. Huazhong University of Science and Technology 8. Wuhan University 9. Jilin University (Changchun) 10. Xi'an Jiaotong University http://edu.sina.com.cn/l/2007-01-08/1747136912.html Top Law Schools: 2007: 1. A++ Beijing University 2. A++ People's University (Beijing) 3. A++ Wuhan University 4. A++ Tsinghua University 5. A+ China University of Political Science and Law (Zhengfa Daxue) 6. A+ Jilin University 7. A+ Fudan University 8. A+ Southwest University of Political Science and Law (Xinan Zhengfa Daxue)(Chongqing) 9. A Zhongnan University of Economics and Law (Zhongnan Caijing Zhengfa Daxue) 10. A Zhejiang University 11. A Xiamen University 12. A Zhongshan University 13. A East China University of Politics and Law 14. A Nanjing University 15. A Nankai University (Tianjin) 16. A Huazhong Normal University 17. A Suzhou University 18. A East China Normal University 19. A Shandong University" Sun, 04 Mar 2007 17:40:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#25725 The ranking posting above is an email that was posted to the Chinalaw listserv. Anyone who is interested in China should be on the listserv. Caution: It is a professional listserv, not a social one. http://hermes.gwu.edu/archives/chinalaw.html Sun, 04 Mar 2007 17:46:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#25726 Yes, but by professional, Zoticogrillo doesn't mean you can post your resume or beg for a job. Doing so would be against the rules of this particular listserv. That being said, it is a great way to ask professional or legal questions and solicit advice/information. Sun, 04 Mar 2007 17:48:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#25727 oh, and regarding the list of rankings above: The People's University is the same thing as RenDa or Renmin. Most of its graduates go into public service. Sun, 04 Mar 2007 23:46:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#25753 Also, those rankings only consider the institution and its academic reputation. If you review the various directories of lawyers in China, you will realize that the most employed graduates in the private sector (in big firms) are from Beijing, Renmin and Fudan (in that order). The other schools aren't anywhere on the map (although you might find a rare and occassional Tsinghua graduate). Mon, 05 Mar 2007 00:54:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#25758 East China and Fudan are the two best law schools in Shanghai, also among the top 10 law schools in China. Technically East China has a better academic background than Fudan, while Fudan (not law school) has a better international reputation. It's true that most employed graduates in the private sector are from Beijing, Renmin and Fudan, but it depends on the area basis. If u come to Shanghai, it went without saying that the most successful attorneys are East China grads. Sat, 07 Apr 2007 00:31:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#29429 EK, I was just accpeted into Beida and would like to ask you a few questions about the program. -How difficult is it to secure internships as a student at Beida? Do the students have time (or is it possible) to participate in an internship during the first year of the LLM program? Sat, 07 Apr 2007 17:41:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#29460 hi gdmullen, we might be classmates, i received an offer of admission as well, and am inclined to accept it. did you also receive a notice with a note that the university will do a further evaluation of your application? Sat, 07 Apr 2007 19:55:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#29465 Oh yeah, Chinese schools are peculiar that way. The first acceptance is from the department, but you're not really in until the main campus administration reviews it. One of the processes is that a political review committee will look at your materials to make sure that you won't be a trouble-maker. Which reminds me, if you're thinking about doing a thesis on human rights, you'll probably have to re-write it a number of times even after your professor approves it, because the main campus might reject it! Sat, 07 Apr 2007 21:33:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#29467 Great to hear you were accepted into BeiDa. It is a great program! As you might know, the Ministry of Education requires that all LLM programs in China be two years (this has been confirmed). So, BeiDa's program is two years. The first year is dedicated to course studying so you probably will not have time for an internship unless you set it up yourself but it is unlikely because you will be in class most of the days during the week. (You could ask Anna for help also, just not sure if you can because of the class schedule). The second year, Anna (who is a great program director) will set up the internship for you. You are guaranteed one if you want one your second year while you write your thesis. If you want to work your first year, you might find it difficult as with any LLM program in any country because you are going to class. Sun, 08 Apr 2007 04:31:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#29472 is this just the second year that the program is being offered? Sun, 08 Apr 2007 08:06:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#29479 BeiDa's program began in 2006. Qinghua's program began in 2005. Sun, 08 Apr 2007 08:16:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#29480 hey all, can anyone pls gimme more info bout east china university of politics and law.. thanks Mon, 09 Apr 2007 16:54:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#29550 Zot: I think that the human rights issue you encountered may be a symptom of Qinghua. Qinghua is much more conservative than BeiDa (for better or worse, I'm not making a judgment) but from what I gather, you would have a better chance of having your thesis approved on a human rights issue at BeiDa. In fact, BeiDa offers a LLM in Human Rights to its Chinese students (which is probably censured to some degree as well but not to the same extent as Qinghua). Mon, 09 Apr 2007 20:46:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#29577 enemy: True. Wanted to point out some of the different levels in which central administration exerts control over the departments for political reasons. I feature I still find unusual and frustrating, yet rational according to the ideology. Wed, 11 Apr 2007 16:45:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#29700 ShockResist, I also received an email that the university will do a further evaluation of my application. EK, Thank you for your insights. Your posts in this forum on Beida have been extremely informative. Could you also provide clarification about the subsequent review by the University that takes place? Fri, 13 Apr 2007 18:48:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#29920 Hi EK, Could you give us some idea on how the academic year goes? We start the program on September right? Do we have a break some time in December? Do classes resume in January? When does the fall term/semester end? When does spring semester begin? Are we expected to be in Beijing in between fall and spring term/semester? when does spring semester end? How soon are we expected to begin our internships after? Sorry for having so many questions. :( Hi GDMullen, I was informed by EK and Anna that the secondary evaluation of the University should pertain to verification of age, citizenship, and that it should not affect the admission decision of the law school. It may also pertain to examination of any crimes that the applicant has committed while in China. Oh no, there goes the time when I ran naked around Shanghai after having too much Tsingtao, haha, kidding. Fri, 13 Apr 2007 19:23:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#29925 GDMullen: Since last year's admission window to BeiDa was so short (beginning sometime in April and ending in May), by the time we received our acceptance letters, it was pretty late. Therefore, either the university did a rush evaluation of our applications or didn't do one at all because we only received one acceptance letter, and the letter didn't mention anything about a second evaluation by the University. The two levels of evaluation seem to be common in China. Both Qinghua and BeiDa do it. Shock: I can't say for sure what your year will be, but I can tell you about mine. I arrived in late August, registration was the first week of September and school started the second week (maybe the 11th?--I can't recall). The fall semester should end around Christmas. This year, we ended so that everyone could make it back home by Dec. 24th, although there was a student who wrote the faculty, the administration, and some students to complain because it compressed the finals and the end of classes. We only had one open book final, one take home final, and three papers, one of which was due in January, so it wasn't that big of a deal. Though, the student's email caused a huge hooplah, so not sure if you guys will be home by Dec 24th this year because of that complaint. Sorry. Spring semester ends after Chinese New Years. Since Chinese New Years is different every year, I can't tell you the exact date you will start (though I'm sure you can google and find out when it will be in 2008). We started on Feb 26th. Last day of classes will be June 1st, then reading week, then finals through the 15th. You have a "Golden Week" in both fall and spring, which amounts to fall and spring break--1 week off. However, travel during this time is pretty much insane and you won't find booking train or plane tickets easy or booking hotels for people who may want to visit you so plan ahead. You are not expected to stay in Beijing over winter break. When you get here, you will have to get a Foreign Residence Permit, which cancels your visa but allows multiple entries into China. So you can travel all you want during this time. Your internship will be set up through Anna, or you can try to network and find your own. If you find your own, it might ensure that it will be something you want. You should be able to work the internship around your schedule, unless, say, you end up working for the largest law firm in China as they may have a rigid internship program. Otherwise, if you want to take a break between Spring semester and your internship, just let Anna know and she will try to work around it. I'm not doing an internship since I'll be working, so I'm not too sure about what's going on exactly with the internships. However, I know Anna is setting them up right now and if you ask in a month or so, you might get more info on what internships were secured. Sat, 14 Apr 2007 20:11:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#29987 enemykombatant, thank you so much for your reply. congratulations on the job! it must be gratifying for the LLM investment to have paid off! Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:04:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#30778 I finally got my admission notice from Qinghua! This time, they didn't have any notice on need for University clearance. they didn't have a "please confirm by" date, unlike Beijing Univ. But BeiDa didn't really send me a "formal notice of admission" yet, they said that would come in June. Wed, 02 May 2007 03:06:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#30864 Which one are you going to attend? Wed, 02 May 2007 15:49:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#30902 i'm going to beida. i have to say that enemykombatant really helped me out a lot when i was deciding. although technically, i haven't really made my decision since i haven't enrolled (and i have not received the final admission notice from beida!) but i will choose to go to beida. Mon, 05 May 2008 22:22:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#46891 Zot: I think that the human rights issue you encountered may be a symptom of Qinghua. Qinghua is much more conservative than BeiDa (for better or worse, I'm not making a judgment) but from what I gather, you would have a better chance of having your thesis approved on a human rights issue at BeiDa. In fact, BeiDa offers a LLM in Human Rights to its Chinese students (which is probably censured to some degree as well but not to the same extent as Qinghua). well i attended that human rights program and did my thesis in human rights law. don't worry, the university does not interfeer much with law school's teaching. Mon, 05 May 2008 22:39:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#46892 hey guys, as a Chinese I'm glad to see so many foreign talents are interested in working in China. but I'm also quite suprised: why China? you may all have heard of the air pollution (at least in Beijing), the noize, the terrible traffic... and inspite of all these, you're interested in beijing. Why? Well I'm a Beijinger, graduated from Beida law school and work in Beijing with a local law firm. I love this city because it's my hometown, but I've heard many foreign friends complaining to me of those problems... Tue, 06 May 2008 03:55:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#46903 There is much about the PRC that is heart breaking. There is so much good potential and SO MANY wonderful people in China. I have much hope for the wonderful place. But there is a lot of sadness and suffering there as well. Here is not the place to discuss the problems. However, there are many wonderful places in this world. I have a long term interest in China because that is where my wife's family lives. Tue, 06 May 2008 17:30:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/229/last#46932 Hey there Zogicogrillo. How are you doing old friend? Long time no post! I hope all is well in the Great Northwest! I'm relocating to the cold Northeast/Big Apple this fall. Perhaps we can finally meet up in the PRC one of these days!