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Employability

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josepidal

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 237
Employability
Wed Feb 28, 2007 09:23 PM
Which underlying issues do you think you find conflict in?
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ivan2006


Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 312
Employability
Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:04 PM
NZ,

My first plan was to work for a branch of a US firm in London and hope to get moved. However, I thought that this way I may not even get moved, if I did it may not be for very long and it may not be locationally what I had hoped. If you think that the situation would be any different please let me know.

I'm hoping to make a life for myself out in the US and try to stay as long as possible. I'm worried my American dream won't happen. Not only that but I read conflicting advice, some say the LLM will be ok, others say it won't and I need to do a JD. I'm really confused! Can anyone help?

Lauren


Hey, I think the answer may vary depending on your personal circumstances: if you want to stay in the US because you like this country, but you wouldn´t mind either to go back to the UK and work for a Magic Circle firm or the London office of an American firm if things do not go well, then I think an LLM could be a cheaper and marketable solution. If, however, you have significant personal links to the US (e.g. you date/ are married to an American, etc.) or have other strong personal reasons to stay in this country for a really long period, then you could think about a JD degree.
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lauren85

Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 15
Employability
Thu Mar 01, 2007 03:33 PM
Hi,

I find the advice sometimes conflicting. Generally whether gaining an LLM would realistically be enough to secure employment.

Thanks for the advice Ivan. If I did an LLM in the US and enjoyed my time there then it's highly unlikely I'd want to return to London, especially as I do date an American. It looks like I may have to consider JD degree, I don't have any way to fund one of these though so I'm thinking I may have to choose a completely different career path altogether :(

Lauren
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josepidal

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 237
Employability
Thu Mar 01, 2007 04:47 PM
Again, the advice conflicts because there are a number of sub-issues, though being UK qualified is quite a plus. Thus, I asked which of the complex sub-issues you were particularly interested in.
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NZ

Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 8
Employability
Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:12 PM
Lauren

Given you already have a (UK) law degree, I would not spend the extra time, effort and cost pursuing a JD over an LLM. It seems unlikely you would be significantly more marketable with a JD.

The things likely to be important to an employer will be the US school at which you study, visa, grades and class rankings, publications, law review and work experience in the UK (although, this will be heavily discounted, usually by around 2 years by a US firm).

There is no magic answer to your question . Wherever you study, there is the risk that you will be unable to find an employment position in the US. However, there are two upsides to taking the plunge: (a) First, your chances of finding employment seem good at first blush given the current state of the market, but ultimately this will turn on the factors above; and (b) Secondly, even if you did an LLM and had to return home, all is not wasted because you would have secured some valuable letters.

NZ
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ivan2006


Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 312
Employability
Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:53 PM
Again, the advice conflicts because there are a number of sub-issues, though being UK qualified is quite a plus. Thus, I asked which of the complex sub-issues you were particularly interested in.


Well noted... Being UK qualified she could sit for the Bar in NY and CA without an LLM.
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lauren85

Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 15
Employability
Fri Mar 02, 2007 05:03 PM
Hi guys,

Thanks for your help Jose and Ivan.

In regard to the sub-issues you mention Jose, I think I may be having a blonde moment because I'm unsure exactly what you are referring to? My main worry is that I don't want to waste a year of my life and all of my savings on an LLM if it's unlikely I could get a job somewhere. I'd be happy to work in California/New York, probably prefer the former though. I would have liked more geographical scope than this but appreciate that's just the state of affairs.

Also Jose, why would you think being UK qualified is a plus? Also, you mentioned a UK friend, did he do the LPC in England as well as a law degree and then do a LLM?

Ivan, why do you think I wouldn't be significantly more marketable with a JD? I do feel like I'm not keen to spend another 3 years studying. Does it come down to visa issues - are firms generally not willing to go through the hassle of dealing with my visa? Regarding work experience, I've just done some interning here and there and spent 6 months working in a small law office, would this not be taken into account?

Thanks again,

Lauren
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josepidal

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 237
Employability
Sat Mar 03, 2007 09:33 AM
London is a major financial center, so being English has some automatic attraction.
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ml17

Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 24
Employability
Sat Mar 03, 2007 01:42 PM
Hey
I have offers both from US (Penn) and UK (Kings for taxation) so far. While many people might go for U Penn, I’m not completely convinced. I think Kings has its merits too, apart from being considerably cheaper. But the decisive factor for me would be future employment. Where do I stand a better chance? I have a background in taxation and I think law firms primarily look for relevant work experience while looking for llm recruits
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josepidal

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 237
Employability
Sat Mar 03, 2007 04:10 PM
Possible apples and oranges. Where do you want to work in the first place?
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figaro


Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 87
Employability
Mon Mar 05, 2007 01:18 AM
Also Jose, why would you think being UK qualified is a plus?


I think you would have a better chance of getting a permanent job in the States compared to other LLMs since English is your mother tongue. And you are familiar with the common law system (but maybe this is trivial)...
Anyway, wish you good luck!
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josepidal

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 237
Employability
Mon Mar 05, 2007 01:42 AM
I don't think being a native English speaker is a large component here. Note that there are a number of LLMs who were educated wholly in English, from certain countries in South Asia, Southeast Asia, and Africa.
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figaro


Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 87
Employability
Mon Mar 05, 2007 07:51 AM
I don't think being a native English speaker is a large component here. Note that there are a number of LLMs who were educated wholly in English, from certain countries in South Asia, Southeast Asia, and Africa.


Possible, but I dont know how many there are and I personally dont know any LLM graduate who is an English native speaker.

Since I am not a native speaker myself, I just imagine that it would be much easier to find a job if I were - maybe someone wants to share his/her experience with regard to this?

But in the end, I guess it depens on what law firms are looking for. Either they want you because of your foreign background or they want you as a "normal" US associate, in which case your English skills will play a role.

[Edited 05 Mar 2007 by figaro]
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ml17

Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 24
Employability
Mon Mar 05, 2007 07:53 AM
if it comes to preference of place of employment, the answer would pretty much swing in favour of us. since with a us llm you have the option to work either in us or uk. whereas with a uk llm breaking into the us market might not be very easy (only in relative terms).
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caplaz

Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 7
Employability
Wed Mar 07, 2007 05:33 PM
Hi this is an Italian applicant who got admittance to NYU and UCLA and still is waiting for Columbia and Berkeley.

I am a lawyer registered at the Italian bar and I am already working since 3 years in a top tier italian law firm.

I went throught your posts (in particular those of Ivan2006) and I have to say that frankly speaking if your goal is to stay in the U.S.A. and you are european you should not pick NYU.

Maybe it's better to look at new LLM markets, like the californian one (I've heard that in 2007 there will be the first Californian Job Fair at UCLA).

If you want to choose NYU because NY is simply heaven, well go ahead but I think that in the market of today you have to find simply the new thing. NYU with a class of more than 400 people represents simply what you don't want to choose if your goal is to stay in the USA.

That's why I am considering UCLA more than NYU (no matter the rankings, expect the first 5 universities they are not useful at all).

I may be wrong about this, but I think that this is the way the market goes.

Any comments?

ciao to everybody
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josepidal

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 237
Employability
Thu Mar 08, 2007 05:02 AM
I personally dont know any LLM graduate who is an English native speaker.

Even if you come from a very small program, this is highly improbably.

Regarding California, I imagine you're still better off with NYU. Sure, you have a good regional school with regional ties, but they still love the "national" "top tier" East Coast schools over there.

Look at a place like Irell, for example. Their summer JD class is composed of people from UCLA, Stanford, Boalt Hall and other regional favorites, plus Harvard, Yale, Columbia, etc. people.
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marina81

Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 11
Employability
Thu Mar 08, 2007 07:48 AM

Not sure to understand the notion of “regional school with regional ties”…

Is UCLA a "regional" school? What about NYU? Is it also a "good regional school with regional ties"? And Yale? A "good regional school with regional ties" (in New Haven)? A "national" shool?

By the way, California has by far the largest population and the largest Gross State Product in the US. If California were an independent nation, it would be one of the tenth largest economies in the world (between 6th and 10th, depending on the source).

Believe it or not, there is life outside the East Coast…
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franz75

Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 3
Employability
Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:22 PM
Do you think it's possible to find jobs in california? I heard that there are even higher barriers for LLMs there.


Not sure to understand the notion of “regional school with regional ties”…

Is UCLA a "regional" school? What about NYU? Is it also a "good regional school with regional ties"? And Yale? A "good regional school with regional ties" (in New Haven)? A "national" shool?

By the way, California has by far the largest population and the largest Gross State Product in the US. If California were an independent nation, it would be one of the tenth largest economies in the world (between 6th and 10th, depending on the source).

Believe it or not, there is life outside the East Coast…
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ivan2006


Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 312
Employability
Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:45 AM
Hi this is an Italian applicant who got admittance to NYU and UCLA and still is waiting for Columbia and Berkeley.

I am a lawyer registered at the Italian bar and I am already working since 3 years in a top tier italian law firm.

I went throught your posts (in particular those of Ivan2006) and I have to say that frankly speaking if your goal is to stay in the U.S.A. and you are european you should not pick NYU.

Maybe it's better to look at new LLM markets, like the californian one (I've heard that in 2007 there will be the first Californian Job Fair at UCLA).

If you want to choose NYU because NY is simply heaven, well go ahead but I think that in the market of today you have to find simply the new thing. NYU with a class of more than 400 people represents simply what you don't want to choose if your goal is to stay in the USA.

That's why I am considering UCLA more than NYU (no matter the rankings, expect the first 5 universities they are not useful at all).

I may be wrong about this, but I think that this is the way the market goes.

Any comments?

ciao to everybody


I respect your opinion, but I cannot agree with your arguments. Hope you find the "new thing" you are looking for in the West Coast. Or maybe if you apply to universities in NY, you should seriously consider universities like Fordham, Cardozo, Yeshiva or Brooklyn Law School. After all, since you think that 1) an European that wants to stay here should avoid overcrowded places like NYU; and 2) after the 5th best ranked school (what a coincidence: NYU and Columbia are tied at #4) rankings do not matter at all, this is a rational conclusion. Good luck - you may need it...
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acad2007

Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 4
Employability
Sun Mar 11, 2007 07:00 AM
Hi All, I am new to this forum. I am an Indian LL.B graduate, currently working at one of the top corproate law firms in India. I have been admitted to Georgetown, Upenn and NYU LL.M programs. Waiting to hear from Columbia. As of now I am very confused between Upenn and NYU. Though I am more inclined to choose NYU (which is offering me the USD 10,000 waiver+research assistant position), I have been told that employability after LL.M will depend solely on my grades in class and NYU grading system lags behind as compared to other top LL.M programs. For example, NYU grades its LL.M students along with the J.Ds which apparently makes it harder to attain good grades and secondly, the highest grade at NYU is A as compared to A+ in the other schools and therefore I have been advised to consider Upenn over NYU. I would really appreciate if any one can throw some light on to this information and please advice me what to do, especially if anyone is currently in the NYU/Upenn LL.M program. Also to clarify, though I will apply to jobs in the USA(NY), but it is not my ultimate destination and the chances are higher that I may seek employment outside of USA, may be London or Singapore, though I may not return to my home country. In this scenario, how would this grading system at NYU deter my chances of getting employment or will the NYU name be a huge factor outside of USA to help me seek employment? Please advice.
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ivan2006


Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 312
Employability
Mon Mar 12, 2007 01:13 PM
What you heard is true. Grades are crucial, although the fact that you come from a "hot" country like India may be a plus when you seek employment. And it is true that here at NYU there are no separate curves between JDs and LLMs. However, be aware that if you look for a job here a potential employer may ask you whether your curve is different from the JD´s. It happened to me and happened to some people I know. At that time, I could answer "no" without gasping.
Regarding jobs overseas, I believe foreign employers do not care too much about your LLM grades (unless they are really bad - e.g. C or D). They may be more interested in your pre-LLM experience.
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Zelcor

Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 6
Employability
Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:47 AM
Hi. I've been accepted to the Securities and Financial Regualtions program at Georgetown (LLM). I have a law degree from a university in Montreal and work for one of the largest CDN firms. I also have 3 years work experience in the financial industry and an extensive securities background.

What do you think my chances would be of locating employment in the states after an LLM, and also, how would I find out what state bars I could "Sit" withouth having a common law degree and only an LLM?

Thanks,

JZ
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yueping

Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 109
Employability
Tue Mar 13, 2007 03:34 AM
For example, NYU grades its LL.M students along with the J.Ds which apparently makes it harder to attain good grades and secondly, the highest grade at NYU is A as compared to A+ in the other schools and therefore I have been advised to consider Upenn over NYU.


For your info, Penn Law also grades its students on the same grading curve as the J.D. students, which makes it harder to get good grades. So if you're basing your choice of law school only based on the grading curve, I guess it is a draw.
That said, I do not see how getting an "A" instead of "A+" would potentially affect your chances of employment. Although good grades help, firms look at the whole "package", mainly the country you come from, your work experience, etc.
It is possible to have interviews with top 5 law firms while having some "B", at Penn or at NYU (and other premier schools). As Ivan said, firms do not care that much about your LLM grades, they look at your pre-LLM experience.

[Edited 13 Mar 2007 by yueping]
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josepidal

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 237
Employability
Tue Mar 13, 2007 03:39 AM
Don't misquote Ivan. He said firms don't care as much about grades if you're looking at a foreign office.
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acad2007

Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 4
Employability
Tue Mar 13, 2007 04:04 PM
Thanks Ivan, yueping and josepidal. It is a relief to know that the grading system is not very different between Upenn and NYU. Though it may seem very silly, I was kind of concerned about this factor especially since I will have had only 1 year experience prior to LL.M.

In that case, I guess I feel more inclined to opt for NYU especially since I have been offered some amount of financial aid+NY city+internationally, NYU holds a more attractive name. HOwever in favour of Upenn i do want the opportunity to take classes at Wharton....But then if I do take NYU I am contemplating to enroll myself for the advanced certificate program at Stern which is also pretty cool.

If anyone has a contrary opinion please feel free to express.
Thanks.
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