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Employability

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josepidal

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 237
Employability
Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:06 PM
Okay, okay, let's not go into yueping mode here.

This is definitely true, but the context was choosing a lower-ranked regional favorite (i.e., anyone but Stanford who's still well-ranked) over Harvard, Columbia, NYU, etc., etc.
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marina81

Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 11
Employability
Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:24 PM
You’re right Jose.

I am just very excited to celebrate this new Job Fair in Los Angeles which is an important step for the whole LLM community and to let other people know about it.

Maybe one day Yale, Harvard or Columbia will participate in this new event.

[Edited 14 Mar 2007 by marina81]
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ivan2006


Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 312
Employability
Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:30 PM
Jose, why did you say that? I was expecting that typical post saying that UPenn rocks, etc.

Talking seriously now, I guess there were 2 discussions going on here:
a) What makes you different makes you beautiful? Lower-ranked regional favorites (man, I loved that) vs. higher-ranked schools. Mainstream markets (NYC) vs. not-so-obvious markets for LLMs (Chicago, CA or TX).

b) LLMs with cross-registration with b-schools vs. LLMs with no courses at a b-school. Would an LLM candidate from an university that has a great business school (e.g. UPenn, Northwestern, UChicago) LLM be in a better position in comparison with an LLM from a higher-ranked university because they may attend classes at their respective business schools? (yueping and his clone will love this question, eh?)
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josepidal

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 237
Employability
Thu Mar 15, 2007 06:07 AM
@Ivan: UPenn only rocks when it's not yueping making the argument. But how can you leave out HBS? Come on, I'm sure I can cite a number of irrelevant surveys and articles that show you HBS is still close to Wharton in the rankings!

@Marina: It shouldn't be hard at all. The only problem is that HLS, Columbia and NYU students would have to buy their own plane tickets for California.
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ivan2006


Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 312
Employability
Thu Mar 15, 2007 01:42 PM
hehehe
I did not forget HBS - I just wanted to mention great business schools of law schools that are not among the top 5 in the law school rankings... but HBS is ranked among the best b-schools in every single ranking. By the way, George W Bush is a Harvard MBA, isnīt he?
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fg

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 329
Employability
Thu Mar 15, 2007 02:05 PM
For what it is worth, I don't think doing a "lower ranking" LLM is worth it for the business school. Legal employers are looking for lawyers not business grads and since research shows people usually hire people who are like themselves, unless your employer went to business school, any business school connections will probably not register.

[Edited 15 Mar 2007 by fg]
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josepidal

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 237
Employability
Thu Mar 15, 2007 03:46 PM
By the way, George W Bush is a Harvard MBA, isnīt he?

Ivan, don't be a yueping.

(Sorry, we're Barack territory.)
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ivan2006


Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 312
Employability
Thu Mar 15, 2007 03:49 PM
No "yuepingisms" from my side... But I thought that you would cheer for the Clintons... After all, Bill is your neighbor, isnīt he?
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josepidal

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 237
Employability
Thu Mar 15, 2007 07:10 PM
Well... I stay aloof from politics but some people here would support Obama just because he's running against Hilary.
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Employability
Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:38 PM
Hey, Josepidal,

I am also in hls and would like to clarify a few facts here, regarding the job market:

I agree that the market is better than it was a few years back, but very many of our classmates still have no jobs.

These include those taking 'in demand subjects' such as corporate law, securities law and capital markets regulations and have good grades. I know a few like that.

I think many factors come into play in this job hunt thing, especially if one already has an llm from an overseas university, the region of the world one comes from, etc. I know many people from continents and subcontinents viewed as having nothing to offer from a capitalistic viewpoint,not being in demand from legal firms.Same case for last year.Sometimes the hammer also falls on people from eastern europe. The lucky ones this year are latinos,chinese,japanese,germans,and indians mostly.

I was just speaking with April the other day (in the job hunt) and I can tell you for a fact that your statistics are highly questionable. Long on conjecture and hype. Short on facts.

It is possible to get a job in the US for llms but it takes hard hard work. Even for llms from the top 4, including harvard.You should also try international jobs like worldbank but those tend to be elitist and demand stellar resumes,grades,work experiences and ideologies.

Goodluck to all
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fg

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 329
Employability
Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:13 PM
Forgive me if I have said this already (I have a feeling that I have made this point somewhere else) but whether you will succeed in getting a job will largely depend on what area you want to go into. For example, if you want to get a litigation job it is extremely difficult for you to even get an interview at a NY firm if you are an LLM. I had almost three years litigation experience before I came to the US and it was tough to get a job in that department whereas I had zero corporate experience and got a job in project finance at Skadden pretty easily. Ridiculous. Especially since I come from a common law country - they would still rather take an American JD with no experience for litigation. Skadden told me that they never ever interview LLMs for litigation no matter how qualified they are.

[Edited 15 Mar 2007 by fg]
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Employability
Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:28 PM
Flygirl,

Agreed. And my point is that even the so called in demand corporate areas are quite hard to break into for llms (foreigners in america), even from so called top tier schools, for the reasons I discussed above.Not impossible,but very difficult.

This is to counter impressions given otherwise in postings on this thread that in some so called tier 1 school,where I also am an llm,(almost)everyone has a job/has not had a very difficult time sourcing one.

Luck to all~
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fg

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 329
Employability
Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:44 PM
Yes, I am definitely agreeing with you.

I think the visa issue also makes some firms very reluctant to hire LLMs.

That being said, you only need one job so even if you just get a couple of interviews you could be lucky.

My experience with Skadden was a total fluke. They initially didn't even give me an interview and then obviously had a lot of their summers turn them down and found themselves short-staffed so called me up. Very weird.

A previous poster mentioned that it is hard for LLMs because we/they compete directly with the JDs. In fact, I think it is worse than that - the firms usually only turn to LLMs when they find out which of their JDs are returning from the summer class so in that respect we are after the JDs in the pecking order. If we were to compete directly with the JDs I actually think it would be easier to get a job since most of us have more work experience.
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Employability
Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:24 AM
Oh yeah,

I totally agree with you as well,Flygirl.Most llms have, one, solid experience in competitive legal areas,two,competitive streak,ambition and desire to excel (which is what brings us here in the first place,usually leaving good jobs overseas) and third,know what it means to be an employee in the maddeningly busy field of law.We have no illusions, we know things on the ground are very different from the theories in law school(many of which sound sexy and grand-but when one gets down to work,you realise alot of it at associate level is mundane,dreary,detail-oriented,low-level and stressful,not to mention the hours,plus you get all the blame if anything at detail level goes wrong, but you suck it up and move on!).

I think if the law firm partners/hirers were honest, they would say we make better associates/employees,but they prefer their own so we come as second best,when the jds have made their picks and there are gaps to be filled.

Good luck with Skadden,Flygirl.That is really an A1 firm and I hope all goes well with you.Show 'em what we llms are made of!

Cheers,all.Good luck with classes and jobsearches.
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josepidal

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 237
Employability
Fri Mar 16, 2007 03:57 AM
I was just speaking with April the other day (in the job hunt) and I can tell you for a fact that your statistics are highly questionable. Long on conjecture and hype. Short on facts.

Again, I think I placed a context to my "statistics." Among others, I emphasized that it's only mid-March and that my denominator consists of the people who do exactly what Career Services (i.e., April Stockfleet) has advised them to do.

I don't want to discuss this in public, but you might be aware that there are people who are doing exactly what they were told NOT to do, which affects all the Harvard LLMs negatively.

For the public discussion, I'd request that you specify which of the qualifications in my original posts you disagree with, and why. Again, this is a complex question and there are many factors.

Also, I would double-check some of your information. For example, Germans have both an incredible advantage and disadvantage, the latter being they have problems talking to the New York office of an international firm because the German office is desperate to get them and would get mad at the New York office for even discussing a US job.

For the private discussion, feel free to PM me.
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Employability
Fri Mar 16, 2007 02:48 PM
let's not draw blood here.my main point was to underscore the point made previously and to clarify your misleading impression that so called tier1 law school llms find it easy to get jobs in america.

my point is,that is far from the truth.many llms have a very very tough time getting jobs,despite taking all career guide advise,and using networks.even harvard has very many desperately-seeking llms without jobs.

can you dispute that josepidal?

good luck to all~
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josepidal

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 237
Employability
Fri Mar 16, 2007 04:51 PM
No one's drawing blood, we haven't quite gone that far even with yueping. It's just a little hard to respond to you when you don't go into any of the specific points I made.

I understand what you mean, that it's attractive to talk on a "bottom line" basis. However, that's not as easy if you understand the factors that go into this.

First, I didn't deny that all LLMs, not very many, have a very, very tough time. Everything flygirl said is of course true, we're JD substitutes and the question is if your overpriced Harvard diploma is worth more than a JD diploma from a lower-ranked school. Nevertheless, we do have evidence that in many cases, people do say yes to that.

Second, well, I'm afraid some people do not take the career office's advice. Like I told you, I've seen people do the exact opposite. On the other hand, I've seen someone doing what was recommended, and getting callbacks in Fall with no preliminary interviews (that is, fly direct to New York for final round). Someone with no work experience and not from China, India, Germany, etc.

Again, I don't want to discuss any of this in public, which is why I said I'd love to talk in private, as I have with other classmates.

Third, no one said much about using networks. As LLMs, it's presumed that we generally have no New York networks to speak of. I know a number of people who've found jobs, and very few were facilitated by home country networks.

Finally, I said it's just mid-March.

I think we're talking with somewhat different presumptions. However, I do have reasons for making mine, including seeing people with all the disadvantages (no work experience, insignificant country, etc.) do well in their job hunt.
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Employability
Sat Mar 17, 2007 07:11 AM
:)

I guess its different for everyone then.

regards
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yueping

Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 109
Employability
Sun Mar 18, 2007 02:51 AM
No one's drawing blood, we haven't quite gone that far even with yueping


why do you always bring up my name, what did I possibly do to you ?
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josepidal

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 237
Employability
Sun Mar 18, 2007 03:57 AM
Nothing that hasn't endeared you to us. It's just convenient to use "yueping" as shorthand to refer to a particularly colorful mode of posting.
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HernanArg

Joined: 19 Mar 2007
Posts: 11
Employability
Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:06 PM


I have been readin this threads for quite long now and have to thnk Josepidal, Ivan and all the rest, some tips were illuminating, some others confusin but also useful.
Anyways here lies my situation. I am from Argentina (american resident though)I just got my degree (am only 23) and have very few experience (say 11/2 years). I ve been admited to UCLA recently to do my LLM but also have an offer to intern in Dubai for a team of lawyers. As I ve read statistics sayin different things I wonder what the chances to get a Job are. and when u speak about "getting a job", what kind of job r we talkin about? Or better how much money r we talkin about?
Anyways I hope some of u can clarify my doubts as I dont want to throw away my lifetime savings to find out that studying in the US did not get me a well paid job.
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ivan2006


Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 312
Employability
Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:23 PM
Ok, hereīs my personal opinion: if I were you, I would go to Dubai. You would gather some work experience that would be really valuable in the future - and it would not jeopardize your chances of admission into an LLM program in the US. Besides, you are very young, and a couple of years of work experience before pursuing an LLM would do you no harm.
When I talked about getting a job, I was referring to jobs in NY Law Firms (salaries of 160K)/ Big 4s (salary of 85-90K).
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josepidal

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 237
Employability
Tue Mar 20, 2007 01:51 PM
Yes, as Ivan says, everyone refers to the "Big Law" jobs in New York with salaries of 160K (could get higher, some say). Smaller firms may not have the resources to handle your immigration needs.

However, you should give more information on your career plans, your Dubai offer, and your past experience.
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HernanArg

Joined: 19 Mar 2007
Posts: 11
Employability
Thu Mar 22, 2007 08:52 AM

However, you should give more information on your career plans, your Dubai offer, and your past experience.


Thanks to u both for the answer. The Dubai thing is not highly well paid (on top of everything considering how expensive it is to live in this place). As for my career plans I seem not to have things as clear as many of you, I just want to further my studies in something near to intl bus or litigation and arbitration. I am also interested in the corporate approach of law. I ve had very few experience; worked part time for a year in a legal firm back in Argentina and I am currently working for an Energy Company in the Middle East
Anyways, I do all this not only for the purpose of increasing my knowledge but as I said to get a decent job, which in my country seems to be harder and harder every day (specially for young lawyers).
So... my desicion will be taken during this weekend (Arab weekend on Th and Fr...I know it is weird).
Thnks again for the fast response
Keep with posts that are very useful to everyone
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