http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884 en Employability - LLM GUIDE Discussion Board Fri, 23 Feb 2007 00:45:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#24884 Hi everyone, I was wondering if someone could clear up some questions I have. I've done a Law LLB degree and a Legal Practice Course in the UK and would like to practice law in the US. I'm currently looking into funds but I'm finding I would only be able to do a LLM and not a JD. I have a few questions regarding this: 1) Is the state I get an LLM from the only state I can practice law in? 2) Do all law schools allow you to tailor your LLM so that you can get as many core JD subjects in as possible> 3) If I get an LLM, do I then have to pass the bar exam before I can apply to law firms to work? 4) Taking on board my UK degrees (but I'm not a qualified solicitor over here, after doing the GDL you have to work 2 years in a law firm to qualify, I haven't done that) and if I got an LLM, as a British person what would my employability be over in the US? I'd really appreciate it if someone could help me out with all this. I don't want to make a massive financial mistake by putting myself through an LLM only to find myself jobless and having to live back in the UK. Thanks guys, Lauren Fri, 23 Feb 2007 03:03:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#24891 1) No relevance. Higher tier law schools don't even focus on any state law. However, most states have bar requirements that LLMs can't meet, so you're looking mainly at New York and California. 2) Generally, but it would be a waste of an LLM to do that and it's discouraged. 3) No. You look for a job the moment you land. 4) If you have an LLM from a good school, then very high. I have a friend who has no work experience but got a job in New York. He can go back to the UK when he wants to and not do the two years to qualify, and get paid the full rate off the bat. Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:24:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#24953 Fully agree with josepidal. However, I would tell you to consider the possibility of applying for a 2-year JD program (like Northwestern´s). If you hold a JD degree, your employability will be much higher. Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:24:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#24958 I would rather go for the best school you can find, as a general statement, rather than focus on schools that offer a 2-year JD. Sat, 24 Feb 2007 23:43:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#24968 I disagree with josepidal that the chances of finding a position in New York after an LLM are "very high". Yes it can be done. However, I would not rate an LLM's chances any higher than 50%, even at the top four schools. There are two reasons for this: (a) First, there is a very large pool of highly competitive applicants, and LLMs compete directly with JDs for positions; (b) Secondly, employing LLMs is risky for US firms because of visa issues, cultural differences and the perception you will want to return home at some stage. It is for these reasons that the general advice is don't do an LLM primarily to secure an employment position in the US, particularly given the cost (USD70k). If your primary aim is employment, you could (and perhaps should) consider alternatives such as working for a large firm in the UK with US offices (eg Clifford Chance) and applying for a transfer to the US after 2-3 years. Also, have a look at past LLM Guide postings on this issue, as they are quite illuminating. Sun, 25 Feb 2007 00:19:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#24969 I´m afraid I overlooked josepidal´s last statement. Actually, I don´t think it is easy to land a job here in the US either (even holding an LLM degree from a top school). There are some success stories of LLMs that find jobs in the best law firms in NY, but when analyzing this issue it is important to bear in mind that: a) Law firms prefer JDs to LLMs. Does it mean that a JD from Fordham with a good GPA has better chances to land a decent job than a foreign-trained lawyer that holds an LLM from Harvard? I am afraid yes; b) There is still a certain level of unawareness among some firms (not the top firms that have huge international lawyer programs, like Simpson, Skadden or Cleary) regarding what an LLM is. When Americans hear about LLM, they immediately think of a Tax LLM (that´s the LLM Americans pursue). I have heard from some non-tax collegues that they had to explain what an LLM is in some interviews. c) It may be easier for LLM students of certain nationalities to find jobs in the US: for instance, some of the Latin Americans (mainly, Brazilians and Argentinians) and Asians (Chinese, Indians) are "golden" this year. Europeans will most likely return to their home countries (in a best-case scenario, to work for a US law firm). However, it should be borne in mind that not all the Latin Americans and Indians are "golden". For instance: if you are Chinese, you have 2-3 or more years of experience, you are expert in corporate law/ capital markets and speak good English, then you have good chances to find a job here. If you graduated recently and you have no work experience, then the odds are not as favorable... you can manage to do that, but chances are really slim; d) Specialization - corporate/ capital market lawyers are the hottest guys around. Many people say tax lawyers are in a good position, but note that tax guys compete against the American LLMs and JDs (much fiercer competition). If you are specialized in other areas (e.g. litigation), you may need extra luck... and good contacts. I agree with NZ statement that working for one of the Magic Circle firms can be a shorter way to come to the US. And I still think that if you really want to pursue a legal career in the US, it is better to hold a JD degree than an LLM. Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:16:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#24994 Yes it can be done. However, I would not rate an LLM's chances any higher than 50%, even at the top four schools. There are two reasons for this: (a) First, there is a very large pool of highly competitive applicants, and LLMs compete directly with JDs for positions; (b) Secondly, employing LLMs is risky for US firms because of visa issues, cultural differences and the perception you will want to return home at some stage. At the risk of sounding condescending, I don't think you are currently taking an LLM at a "top four" school, and have not tried looking for a job. In short, I think your statement is long on conjecture and short on personal experience. HLS's LLM career advisor posits a rate of 100%, actually, excluding the people not looking for jobs (academics, judges, people working for home country employers). Considering firms like Cravath and Simpson Thacher called her last month, outside the New York job fair, I would agree. This is accounting for the valid issues you already raised. Note that the job market now is very different from the market after 9/11 and the economic decline. For 2007, 50% might be a credible figure if you don't leave your dorm room and wait for an employer to offer you a job. As always, I can only speak for HLS. Sun, 25 Feb 2007 21:16:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#24999 I aggree that the buzz of the town is that the job market here is booming and perhaps this is one of the best years ever for LLMs... Some people I know have already got offers from Cravath, Cleary or Debevoise - and the job hunting season was pretty good for me as well. But let´s say NZ was referring to the percentage of people that jobs in the US. You know, there are some people who don´t want to stay - for instance, most of the Europeans have already secured jobs in great firms back home, and some of the Asians may have offers from American firms located in their countries. Although the overall employment rate could be close to 100%, maybe the statement that 50% of the LLMs of the Top 4 schools stay in the US is not that far from reality... although (like you) I can only speak for NYU. Sun, 25 Feb 2007 21:51:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25001 No, I had people looking for US jobs specifically in mind, and the people who want to stay for a while as opposed to an international lawyer program. Incidentally, we might be having some difference in experience because HLS LLMs take the same classes as JDs. For example, it's easy to explain what classes you took. Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:12:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25020 You know, there are some people who don´t want to stay - for instance, most of the Europeans have already secured jobs in great firms back home But I guess the wages in the USA (in a decent/top law firm) are substantially higher than in a EU country (same decent/top law firm of course) ?? Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:17:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25021 If you work for a top law firm (US law firms usually pay more than national ones) in Europe, I dont think that there is too much of a difference (considering the high living costs in NY (unless you live in London) and currency rate at the moment). And there are also US law firms that pay their US rates in Europe. Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:00:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25078 At the risk of sounding condescending, I don't think you are currently taking an LLM at a "top four" school, and have not tried looking for a job. In short, I think your statement is long on conjecture and short on personal experience. HLS's LLM career advisor posits a rate of 100%, actually, excluding the people not looking for jobs (academics, judges, people working for home country employers). Considering firms like Cravath and Simpson Thacher called her last month, outside the New York job fair, I would agree. This is accounting for the valid issues you already raised. Note that the job market now is very different from the market after 9/11 and the economic decline. For 2007, 50% might be a credible figure if you don't leave your dorm room and wait for an employer to offer you a job. As always, I can only speak for HLS. That's funny, I know a French girl at Harvard who really, really wants to work in the US but has not found anything yet. And I know at least 2 people at Columbia who told me they are still looking very hard to find jobs in the US. Last I checked, these are "top four" schools, and these people actually "left their dorm rooms" and have been trying really hard to look for a job. Of course, as with their other classmates, they have been showered with lots of attention from law firms and lots of free gifts, but what really matters is getting a firm offer, and unfortunately, the fact is that there are still people who are searching. Although I did not ask about the rest of their class, this certainly goes to show that all is not as pink and rosy as what is suggested by some persons. The fact that HLS advisor has an optimistic opinion about the job market, or that premier firms have called that advisor to collect resumes does not mean that they will hire everyone in the class. I am sure there are lots of students in those schools who got interesting offers and everything, but suggesting a 100% success rate in those schools is misleading and pure misinformation. Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:10:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25082 That's funny, I know a French girl at Harvard who really, really wants to work in the US but has not found anything yet. I think I know who you're talking about, and she has long since found a job. To clarify my various statements, I'm in no way saying things are pink and rosy nor that finding a permanent US job is not difficult. I am, however, countering very bleak forecasts, at least for the "top four." The fact that people are still searching is actually a good sign. It's February, and is roughly the start of LLM callback period after the Columbia job fair at the end of January. The HLS advisor isn't optimistic. She has the last couple of batches to show. But to clarify my seemingly extravagant assertion, I mean 100% of people looking for permanent jobs in the US, and possibly who go about looking in the right way as she advises. April Stockfleet, the HLS LLM advisor, goes out on a limb for individual LLMs, and you'd have to be an HLS LLM looking for a job to believe it because I don't think anyone would believe me if I described it. Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:45:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25091 Well, I still think that for Europeans is difficult to get a permanent position here. First of all, suppose you are French (or German) and you send resumes to NY Law Firms that have offices in your home country - for instance, Shearman, Cleary, Debevoise, Latham, Sullivan, etc. They will consider these candidates as a primary option for their foreign offices, not for the NY ones... But it does not mean that you will never return to the US: if you are hired by an American Law Firm in Europe, it is common practice to send lawyers to the US for shorter periods (say 6-12 months) after a couple of years. Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:21:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25095 Josepidal Sounds to me like you are seriously qualifying and/or backtracking. For the benefit of us all, could you please clarify the "100%" figure you keep referring to, as it seems to be somewhat of a moving feast? NZ Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:26:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25096 I'm not. I'm clarifying that the advertisement is for 100% of students actively looking to stay in the US for a firm job invariably find one. This means that it's not 100% of the entire class, nor 100% by October or something. The 50% or 100% isn't the thing, it's the "of what" that's important. Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:38:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25098 To clarify your various statements, could you please give a rough number of students who actually got job offers in the US and the hiring firms ? I find it rather puzzling that on one side you assert 100 % job offers, then say that "the fact that people are still searching is actually a good sign". How can you assert 100% success when, by your own admission, people are still searching ? Sorry, but there is nothing "top four" specific about still searching for a job, students from schools you consider "lower ranked" are ALSO still searching. :) The fact that you mention that your statement is an "advertisement" (an interesting choice of words) makes it sound as if you make this bold claim as an ad to promote how great HLS is and how great their career office is (please don't take this as an insult, this is merely the first thing that came to my mind after you mentionned the term advertisement). What is so specific about the tips from the HLS advisor that you claim that 100% of "people who go about looking in the right way as she advises" get a job ? Could you please share with us some of the tips ? What is the "right way" to look for a job, as opposed to the "wrong way" everyone else from "inferior schools" is allegedly doing ? Are you sure that the person I am talking about "has long since found a job" ? I dare hope there is more than one French student at Harvard. :) Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:56:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25099 Okay, fair enough. I can't give you any stats because I'm afraid official stats generated by exit interviews before graduation just don't exist yet. However, you have to understand the dynamics of LLM job hunting and not play logic games. Obviously, I can't claim 100% for the CURRENT LLM class since the Columbia Job Fair was just a month ago. I use "advertisement" to describe the talks directed at current LLMs, not to applicants, and the Admissions Office will understandably be cautious about making that kind of assurance lest students plan their finances around it. I discuss "top four" in reaction to an earlier post, and with no relevant cutoff in mind. I don't want to repeat the HLS advisor's tips online, but they are definitely not unique to the "top four." Of course, the wrong ways include mass mailing your resume to a thousand people and walking up to every lawyer in sight and saying, "I want a job." There is more than one French female LLM currently in the Harvard LLM program, but I assumed you meant the one most prominently looking for work (as in, discussing it in the LLM e-group). My original comment was in reaction to advice that finding a US job is near-impossible, and I obviously challenge that. I can't tell you it's not difficult nor frustrating, of course, but I sincerely believe in 100%. Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:04:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25100 Fair enough. BTW, did you get a job offer yet ? Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:10:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25101 Not something I'd discuss here, sorry. Note that while I've followed this process closely, I never said I was myself actively looking. Mon, 26 Feb 2007 23:25:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25108 Maybe Josepidal´s comments could be interpreted in the following manner: most (I don´t dare to say all) of the LLMs who want really bad to stay in the US manage to do so at the end of the year. And what´s "really bad"? In my opinion, it means being ready to turn down the offers you may receive to return to your home country (by March many Europeans and Asians may have received offers) and to stay here until the Bar Exam - no matter what happens. I know 2 people that found jobs here in June and July last year... That was certainly a reward for their willpower... Tue, 27 Feb 2007 00:53:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25113 Ivan: That's fair, but I'd add that part of it might also be willingness to move down the ladder in case you are hit by bad luck (and there are random things that can happen at interviews and full callbacks, as you know). Your two favorite (alleged) Penn posters drop certain firms' names, but in such a large legal market, any firm in the Vault or AmLaw 100 (for lack of a better list) is a good one. Tue, 27 Feb 2007 01:18:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25118 What is the LLM e-group ? And how does one be on your list of favorite posters ? :) I think that the 100% figure given by your law school has been grossly exagerated. Even at a top law school, getting a job is not a walk in the park. Students at top 4 schools who managed to get jobs in the US and are now associates even say that it was a difficult process, and that quite a number of their classmates who wanted to stay in the US had to take an offer in their home country and go back as they cannot afford to be jobless. And you know, it is very easy for the school to omit some data and consider that all those who eventually went back did not want to stay in the US, even though these people really wanted to stay, just to reach the 100 % figure and blow prospective students minds away. After all, it just would not do for HLS' reputation if they had to admit that some of their students have been rejected, would it ? Tue, 27 Feb 2007 02:16:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25122 ...and on cue, Yueping throws his hat into the ring. If you actually read the thread, you'll note that: 1) I did not say 100% of the entire class; 2) the job market some time back was very different; and 3) no one denies getting a US job is difficult and time-consuming. But yes, we know that Penn Law LLMs already have jobs in Statler & Waldorf LLP and other prestigious firms (and not just lame one year internships), and that Penn Law LLMs are better than Chicago LLMs not to mention Georgetown LLMs, and that Penn Law LLMs are faster than speeding bullets, etc., etc. Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:13:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25289 NZ, My first plan was to work for a branch of a US firm in London and hope to get moved. However, I thought that this way I may not even get moved, if I did it may not be for very long and it may not be locationally what I had hoped. If you think that the situation would be any different please let me know. I'm hoping to make a life for myself out in the US and try to stay as long as possible. I'm worried my American dream won't happen. Not only that but I read conflicting advice, some say the LLM will be ok, others say it won't and I need to do a JD. I'm really confused! Can anyone help? Lauren Wed, 28 Feb 2007 22:23:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25308 Which underlying issues do you think you find conflict in? Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:04:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25311 NZ, My first plan was to work for a branch of a US firm in London and hope to get moved. However, I thought that this way I may not even get moved, if I did it may not be for very long and it may not be locationally what I had hoped. If you think that the situation would be any different please let me know. I'm hoping to make a life for myself out in the US and try to stay as long as possible. I'm worried my American dream won't happen. Not only that but I read conflicting advice, some say the LLM will be ok, others say it won't and I need to do a JD. I'm really confused! Can anyone help? Lauren Hey, I think the answer may vary depending on your personal circumstances: if you want to stay in the US because you like this country, but you wouldn´t mind either to go back to the UK and work for a Magic Circle firm or the London office of an American firm if things do not go well, then I think an LLM could be a cheaper and marketable solution. If, however, you have significant personal links to the US (e.g. you date/ are married to an American, etc.) or have other strong personal reasons to stay in this country for a really long period, then you could think about a JD degree. Thu, 01 Mar 2007 16:33:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25390 Hi, I find the advice sometimes conflicting. Generally whether gaining an LLM would realistically be enough to secure employment. Thanks for the advice Ivan. If I did an LLM in the US and enjoyed my time there then it's highly unlikely I'd want to return to London, especially as I do date an American. It looks like I may have to consider JD degree, I don't have any way to fund one of these though so I'm thinking I may have to choose a completely different career path altogether :( Lauren Thu, 01 Mar 2007 17:47:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25397 Again, the advice conflicts because there are a number of sub-issues, though being UK qualified is quite a plus. Thus, I asked which of the complex sub-issues you were particularly interested in. Thu, 01 Mar 2007 23:12:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25454 Lauren Given you already have a (UK) law degree, I would not spend the extra time, effort and cost pursuing a JD over an LLM. It seems unlikely you would be significantly more marketable with a JD. The things likely to be important to an employer will be the US school at which you study, visa, grades and class rankings, publications, law review and work experience in the UK (although, this will be heavily discounted, usually by around 2 years by a US firm). There is no magic answer to your question . Wherever you study, there is the risk that you will be unable to find an employment position in the US. However, there are two upsides to taking the plunge: (a) First, your chances of finding employment seem good at first blush given the current state of the market, but ultimately this will turn on the factors above; and (b) Secondly, even if you did an LLM and had to return home, all is not wasted because you would have secured some valuable letters. NZ Thu, 01 Mar 2007 23:53:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25464 Again, the advice conflicts because there are a number of sub-issues, though being UK qualified is quite a plus. Thus, I asked which of the complex sub-issues you were particularly interested in. Well noted... Being UK qualified she could sit for the Bar in NY and CA without an LLM. Fri, 02 Mar 2007 18:03:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25566 Hi guys, Thanks for your help Jose and Ivan. In regard to the sub-issues you mention Jose, I think I may be having a blonde moment because I'm unsure exactly what you are referring to? My main worry is that I don't want to waste a year of my life and all of my savings on an LLM if it's unlikely I could get a job somewhere. I'd be happy to work in California/New York, probably prefer the former though. I would have liked more geographical scope than this but appreciate that's just the state of affairs. Also Jose, why would you think being UK qualified is a plus? Also, you mentioned a UK friend, did he do the LPC in England as well as a law degree and then do a LLM? Ivan, why do you think I wouldn't be significantly more marketable with a JD? I do feel like I'm not keen to spend another 3 years studying. Does it come down to visa issues - are firms generally not willing to go through the hassle of dealing with my visa? Regarding work experience, I've just done some interning here and there and spent 6 months working in a small law office, would this not be taken into account? Thanks again, Lauren Sat, 03 Mar 2007 10:33:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25631 London is a major financial center, so being English has some automatic attraction. Sat, 03 Mar 2007 14:42:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25644 Hey I have offers both from US (Penn) and UK (Kings for taxation) so far. While many people might go for U Penn, I’m not completely convinced. I think Kings has its merits too, apart from being considerably cheaper. But the decisive factor for me would be future employment. Where do I stand a better chance? I have a background in taxation and I think law firms primarily look for relevant work experience while looking for llm recruits Sat, 03 Mar 2007 17:10:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25647 Possible apples and oranges. Where do you want to work in the first place? Mon, 05 Mar 2007 02:18:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25762 Also Jose, why would you think being UK qualified is a plus? I think you would have a better chance of getting a permanent job in the States compared to other LLMs since English is your mother tongue. And you are familiar with the common law system (but maybe this is trivial)... Anyway, wish you good luck! Mon, 05 Mar 2007 02:42:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25764 I don't think being a native English speaker is a large component here. Note that there are a number of LLMs who were educated wholly in English, from certain countries in South Asia, Southeast Asia, and Africa. Mon, 05 Mar 2007 08:51:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25773 I don't think being a native English speaker is a large component here. Note that there are a number of LLMs who were educated wholly in English, from certain countries in South Asia, Southeast Asia, and Africa. Possible, but I dont know how many there are and I personally dont know any LLM graduate who is an English native speaker. Since I am not a native speaker myself, I just imagine that it would be much easier to find a job if I were - maybe someone wants to share his/her experience with regard to this? But in the end, I guess it depens on what law firms are looking for. Either they want you because of your foreign background or they want you as a "normal" US associate, in which case your English skills will play a role. Mon, 05 Mar 2007 08:53:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#25774 if it comes to preference of place of employment, the answer would pretty much swing in favour of us. since with a us llm you have the option to work either in us or uk. whereas with a uk llm breaking into the us market might not be very easy (only in relative terms). Wed, 07 Mar 2007 18:33:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26008 Hi this is an Italian applicant who got admittance to NYU and UCLA and still is waiting for Columbia and Berkeley. I am a lawyer registered at the Italian bar and I am already working since 3 years in a top tier italian law firm. I went throught your posts (in particular those of Ivan2006) and I have to say that frankly speaking if your goal is to stay in the U.S.A. and you are european you should not pick NYU. Maybe it's better to look at new LLM markets, like the californian one (I've heard that in 2007 there will be the first Californian Job Fair at UCLA). If you want to choose NYU because NY is simply heaven, well go ahead but I think that in the market of today you have to find simply the new thing. NYU with a class of more than 400 people represents simply what you don't want to choose if your goal is to stay in the USA. That's why I am considering UCLA more than NYU (no matter the rankings, expect the first 5 universities they are not useful at all). I may be wrong about this, but I think that this is the way the market goes. Any comments? ciao to everybody Thu, 08 Mar 2007 06:02:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26052 I personally dont know any LLM graduate who is an English native speaker. Even if you come from a very small program, this is highly improbably. Regarding California, I imagine you're still better off with NYU. Sure, you have a good regional school with regional ties, but they still love the "national" "top tier" East Coast schools over there. Look at a place like Irell, for example. Their summer JD class is composed of people from UCLA, Stanford, Boalt Hall and other regional favorites, plus Harvard, Yale, Columbia, etc. people. Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:48:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26068 Not sure to understand the notion of “regional school with regional ties”… Is UCLA a "regional" school? What about NYU? Is it also a "good regional school with regional ties"? And Yale? A "good regional school with regional ties" (in New Haven)? A "national" shool? By the way, California has by far the largest population and the largest Gross State Product in the US. If California were an independent nation, it would be one of the tenth largest economies in the world (between 6th and 10th, depending on the source). Believe it or not, there is life outside the East Coast… Sun, 11 Mar 2007 00:22:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26330 Do you think it's possible to find jobs in california? I heard that there are even higher barriers for LLMs there. Not sure to understand the notion of “regional school with regional ties”… Is UCLA a "regional" school? What about NYU? Is it also a "good regional school with regional ties"? And Yale? A "good regional school with regional ties" (in New Haven)? A "national" shool? By the way, California has by far the largest population and the largest Gross State Product in the US. If California were an independent nation, it would be one of the tenth largest economies in the world (between 6th and 10th, depending on the source). Believe it or not, there is life outside the East Coast… Sun, 11 Mar 2007 01:45:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26333 Hi this is an Italian applicant who got admittance to NYU and UCLA and still is waiting for Columbia and Berkeley. I am a lawyer registered at the Italian bar and I am already working since 3 years in a top tier italian law firm. I went throught your posts (in particular those of Ivan2006) and I have to say that frankly speaking if your goal is to stay in the U.S.A. and you are european you should not pick NYU. Maybe it's better to look at new LLM markets, like the californian one (I've heard that in 2007 there will be the first Californian Job Fair at UCLA). If you want to choose NYU because NY is simply heaven, well go ahead but I think that in the market of today you have to find simply the new thing. NYU with a class of more than 400 people represents simply what you don't want to choose if your goal is to stay in the USA. That's why I am considering UCLA more than NYU (no matter the rankings, expect the first 5 universities they are not useful at all). I may be wrong about this, but I think that this is the way the market goes. Any comments? ciao to everybody I respect your opinion, but I cannot agree with your arguments. Hope you find the "new thing" you are looking for in the West Coast. Or maybe if you apply to universities in NY, you should seriously consider universities like Fordham, Cardozo, Yeshiva or Brooklyn Law School. After all, since you think that 1) an European that wants to stay here should avoid overcrowded places like NYU; and 2) after the 5th best ranked school (what a coincidence: NYU and Columbia are tied at #4) rankings do not matter at all, this is a rational conclusion. Good luck - you may need it... Sun, 11 Mar 2007 08:00:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26339 Hi All, I am new to this forum. I am an Indian LL.B graduate, currently working at one of the top corproate law firms in India. I have been admitted to Georgetown, Upenn and NYU LL.M programs. Waiting to hear from Columbia. As of now I am very confused between Upenn and NYU. Though I am more inclined to choose NYU (which is offering me the USD 10,000 waiver+research assistant position), I have been told that employability after LL.M will depend solely on my grades in class and NYU grading system lags behind as compared to other top LL.M programs. For example, NYU grades its LL.M students along with the J.Ds which apparently makes it harder to attain good grades and secondly, the highest grade at NYU is A as compared to A+ in the other schools and therefore I have been advised to consider Upenn over NYU. I would really appreciate if any one can throw some light on to this information and please advice me what to do, especially if anyone is currently in the NYU/Upenn LL.M program. Also to clarify, though I will apply to jobs in the USA(NY), but it is not my ultimate destination and the chances are higher that I may seek employment outside of USA, may be London or Singapore, though I may not return to my home country. In this scenario, how would this grading system at NYU deter my chances of getting employment or will the NYU name be a huge factor outside of USA to help me seek employment? Please advice. Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:13:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26448 What you heard is true. Grades are crucial, although the fact that you come from a "hot" country like India may be a plus when you seek employment. And it is true that here at NYU there are no separate curves between JDs and LLMs. However, be aware that if you look for a job here a potential employer may ask you whether your curve is different from the JD´s. It happened to me and happened to some people I know. At that time, I could answer "no" without gasping. Regarding jobs overseas, I believe foreign employers do not care too much about your LLM grades (unless they are really bad - e.g. C or D). They may be more interested in your pre-LLM experience. Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:47:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26528 Hi. I've been accepted to the Securities and Financial Regualtions program at Georgetown (LLM). I have a law degree from a university in Montreal and work for one of the largest CDN firms. I also have 3 years work experience in the financial industry and an extensive securities background. What do you think my chances would be of locating employment in the states after an LLM, and also, how would I find out what state bars I could "Sit" withouth having a common law degree and only an LLM? Thanks, JZ Tue, 13 Mar 2007 04:34:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26540 For example, NYU grades its LL.M students along with the J.Ds which apparently makes it harder to attain good grades and secondly, the highest grade at NYU is A as compared to A+ in the other schools and therefore I have been advised to consider Upenn over NYU. For your info, Penn Law also grades its students on the same grading curve as the J.D. students, which makes it harder to get good grades. So if you're basing your choice of law school only based on the grading curve, I guess it is a draw. That said, I do not see how getting an "A" instead of "A+" would potentially affect your chances of employment. Although good grades help, firms look at the whole "package", mainly the country you come from, your work experience, etc. It is possible to have interviews with top 5 law firms while having some "B", at Penn or at NYU (and other premier schools). As Ivan said, firms do not care that much about your LLM grades, they look at your pre-LLM experience. Tue, 13 Mar 2007 04:39:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26543 Don't misquote Ivan. He said firms don't care as much about grades if you're looking at a foreign office. Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:04:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26621 Thanks Ivan, yueping and josepidal. It is a relief to know that the grading system is not very different between Upenn and NYU. Though it may seem very silly, I was kind of concerned about this factor especially since I will have had only 1 year experience prior to LL.M. In that case, I guess I feel more inclined to opt for NYU especially since I have been offered some amount of financial aid+NY city+internationally, NYU holds a more attractive name. HOwever in favour of Upenn i do want the opportunity to take classes at Wharton....But then if I do take NYU I am contemplating to enroll myself for the advanced certificate program at Stern which is also pretty cool. If anyone has a contrary opinion please feel free to express. Thanks. Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:00:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26630 Don't misquote Ivan. He said firms don't care as much about grades if you're looking at a foreign office. Thanks, Jose. Btw, I wonder where is yueping´s alter ego... Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:11:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26631 Ivan2006 thanks for you reply, first of all. I see that you are arguing in favor of NYU and this is fair. I respect your ideas and I know that most of the people agree with you. I just explained my ideas, maybe I may be wrong, maybe not. What I referred was just what I heard from one managing partner of one of the top tier US law firm in the Usa, but I understand this will not change your view at all. Anyway, I am lucky because I already received an offer to work in a top tier american law firm (based in N.Y. what a coincidence!) after my LLM in Ucla, so I will take the opportunity to enjoy the californian sun. Good look! Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:16:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26632 note the good look..... good luck! Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:03:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26639 Hi. I've been accepted to the Securities and Financial Regualtions program at Georgetown (LLM). I have a law degree from a university in Montreal and work for one of the largest CDN firms. I also have 3 years work experience in the financial industry and an extensive securities background. What do you think my chances would be of locating employment in the states after an LLM, and also, how would I find out what state bars I could "Sit" withouth having a common law degree and only an LLM? Thanks, JZ Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:12:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26643 Caplaz, it´s great that you have already secured a job even before enrolling in an LLM program. I assume that since you worked at a law firm in Italy (maybe an American firm based therein or a local one with strong ties with the US), your contacts helped you to secure this position, without regard of the law school you attend. However, I don´t think it is everybody´s case, and I am still unconvinced that trying the "new" thing is a feasible solution when an applicant is not in a win-win situation like yours´. My point has always been that you should aim at enrolling at the best school in your speciality, that you should try be close to your target law market (for a foreigner, it could be DC, NY or CA) and that it is better if the law school that you choose has a good network of alumni in your home country. You may have a different opinion on this. And I guess the others would find it helpful if you ellaborated a little bit more on your views about that issue. Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:49:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26647 Ivan, you are right contacts were important (as they always are) but please consider that my goal was just to stay in the USA a couple of years and then come back to Europe (london or Italy again). I am not saying that you are wrong, but simply that I think we are all (me and you in particolar) missing something here. My point is that to be really different you should make an LLM in China (living in Shangai now represents exactly what was living in N Y in 1907 or in Rome in 107 d.c.!!!!!). That would really make you different from the others and a go to guy for law firms that will fight for you. In NY there are simply too many students who want the same thing that you are looking for. This managing partner told me once that during the job fair at a certian stage he couldn't remember the face of all the students he had seen in front of him! LLMS now are of course important and in general a good thing to have in your CV but at the end it all depends at what you are looking for as a job. Do you want to be hired in a company or in an international organization? well the LLM is certainly a good thing for you. Do you want to become partner in a european law firm and do you think that an LLM would give you the possibility to meet new clients? Sorry I don't think an LLM will speed up this process. Contacts in NY are not so easy to get, becuase NY is simply the place to be for all people in the world. That's why I think considering L.A.(and not Berkeley) can be a factor for contacts (even if I am afraid it's becoming more and more a japanese market). Maybe you can find clients that need someone able to understand Italian (in my case of course) and that simply are looking into californian market becuase NY is just too full....may sounds strange i understand it, but believe there is life in the west cost! Re the alumni and network, well let me say that at least in Italy this is really something that does not work. I know a lot of Upenn and NYU former LLMs who go out to enjoy (and this is always good), but sure they did not use this network to find jobs, or similar things.... and finally, let me say it... the real open markets are those in Asia, like India or China....man believe me I went there for a transaction and I could not believe it...they are bulding entire blocks of houses in just one week! That's the place to make business at 100%!!!! but at the end reality is that LLM is also a great experience of life, and honestly speaking, I can't wait to have again a life like a student! I hope the above proves to be useful, in any case good luck to all of you! Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:36:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26655 Ivan, you are right contacts were important (as they always are) but please consider that my goal was just to stay in the USA a couple of years and then come back to Europe (london or Italy again). This is a bit different, and much easier for Europeans. Incidentally, I've been embarrassed a few times when I met certain partners a second time and they greeted me by name and I couldn't even remember where we'd met! Making connections does entail a significant effort. Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:38:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26657 My point is that to be really different you should make an LLM in China (living in Shangai now represents exactly what was living in N Y in 1907 or in Rome in 107 d.c.!!!!!). That would really make you different from the others and a go to guy for law firms that will fight for you. Perhaps only to employers in your home country. There are so many Chinese-American JDs and Chinese lawyers with US LLM training that you wouldn't be different at all. Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:44:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26658 Thanks Ivan, yueping and josepidal. It is a relief to know that the grading system is not very different between Upenn and NYU. Though it may seem very silly, I was kind of concerned about this factor especially since I will have had only 1 year experience prior to LL.M. In that case, I guess I feel more inclined to opt for NYU especially since I have been offered some amount of financial aid+NY city+internationally, NYU holds a more attractive name. HOwever in favour of Upenn i do want the opportunity to take classes at Wharton....But then if I do take NYU I am contemplating to enroll myself for the advanced certificate program at Stern which is also pretty cool. It's a very important concern, especially with just one year of experience. However, the Ivies grade the same, and if you're lucky enough to get straight As, you can even note that your school doesn't use A+ses. If you'll take an unbiased opinion in Ivan's support though, there was a discussion somewhere in this forum about the benefits of cross-registration in the B school. You'd learn a lot sitting in a Wharton class, but I have not found any substantiation whatsoever that it's of particular importance TO EMPLOYERS. If you're going to make that the tiebreaker for choosing between two schools and you are largely concerned with employment, let me opine that you're giving it far too much weight. Even having a certificate or concentration or what have you is not in itself very significant since you'll be handing them a specific list of your subjects anyway. (Someone thanking yueping? Whoa! Heh.) Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:57:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26662 and what about Europeans with LLM education or work experience in China? answer: almost near to 0.... (in italy 0 for sure!) Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:21:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26671 Ivan, you are right contacts were important (as they always are) but please consider that my goal was just to stay in the USA a couple of years and then come back to Europe (london or Italy again). I am not saying that you are wrong, but simply that I think we are all (me and you in particolar) missing something here. My point is that to be really different you should make an LLM in China (living in Shangai now represents exactly what was living in N Y in 1907 or in Rome in 107 d.c.!!!!!). That would really make you different from the others and a go to guy for law firms that will fight for you. In NY there are simply too many students who want the same thing that you are looking for. This managing partner told me once that during the job fair at a certian stage he couldn't remember the face of all the students he had seen in front of him! LLMS now are of course important and in general a good thing to have in your CV but at the end it all depends at what you are looking for as a job. Do you want to be hired in a company or in an international organization? well the LLM is certainly a good thing for you. Do you want to become partner in a european law firm and do you think that an LLM would give you the possibility to meet new clients? Sorry I don't think an LLM will speed up this process. Contacts in NY are not so easy to get, becuase NY is simply the place to be for all people in the world. That's why I think considering L.A.(and not Berkeley) can be a factor for contacts (even if I am afraid it's becoming more and more a japanese market). Maybe you can find clients that need someone able to understand Italian (in my case of course) and that simply are looking into californian market becuase NY is just too full....may sounds strange i understand it, but believe there is life in the west cost! Re the alumni and network, well let me say that at least in Italy this is really something that does not work. I know a lot of Upenn and NYU former LLMs who go out to enjoy (and this is always good), but sure they did not use this network to find jobs, or similar things.... and finally, let me say it... the real open markets are those in Asia, like India or China....man believe me I went there for a transaction and I could not believe it...they are bulding entire blocks of houses in just one week! That's the place to make business at 100%!!!! but at the end reality is that LLM is also a great experience of life, and honestly speaking, I can't wait to have again a life like a student! I hope the above proves to be useful, in any case good luck to all of you! Well, I agree with some of your arguments: I agree that an LLM is not going to make you a partner at your firm. I agree that NY is "overlawyered". And I agree that you could use your expertise of the Californian market to your advantage in the future, since you could be the main reference to the professionals you get to know there. Indeed, California is a great market, and although you may feel it is far from Europe (when it comes to Europe, NY is still the place to be), you have a big connection with the Asian market. And I agree with you when you say that China or India are the hottest countries nowadays. But I have not figured out from what you say is how you will bridge the gap between where you come from and where you want to go. As josepidal said, there are a lot of Indian-American and Chinese-American JDs who master hindi or mandarin here in the US, and these guys (and the Indian and Chinese LLMs) are the ones who will get the jobs related to India or China in NY, LA or SF. It is not my intention to question your motivations, but I wonder how you plan to achieve your second goal (i.e. be where the business is) by pursuing an LLM in US law in the United States. Your 1st goal (make contacts in a cool market where there will be less Italians) is clear to me. Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:34:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26673 Thanks Ivan, yueping and josepidal. It is a relief to know that the grading system is not very different between Upenn and NYU. Though it may seem very silly, I was kind of concerned about this factor especially since I will have had only 1 year experience prior to LL.M. In that case, I guess I feel more inclined to opt for NYU especially since I have been offered some amount of financial aid+NY city+internationally, NYU holds a more attractive name. HOwever in favour of Upenn i do want the opportunity to take classes at Wharton....But then if I do take NYU I am contemplating to enroll myself for the advanced certificate program at Stern which is also pretty cool. It's a very important concern, especially with just one year of experience. However, the Ivies grade the same, and if you're lucky enough to get straight As, you can even note that your school doesn't use A+ses. If you'll take an unbiased opinion in Ivan's support though, there was a discussion somewhere in this forum about the benefits of cross-registration in the B school. You'd learn a lot sitting in a Wharton class, but I have not found any substantiation whatsoever that it's of particular importance TO EMPLOYERS. If you're going to make that the tiebreaker for choosing between two schools and you are largely concerned with employment, let me opine that you're giving it far too much weight. Even having a certificate or concentration or what have you is not in itself very significant since you'll be handing them a specific list of your subjects anyway. (Someone thanking yueping? Whoa! Heh.) I agree with josepidal when he says that taking courses at a b-school should not be your main motivation at the time of choosing a law school. An LLM is a master in laws, isn´t it? Although your experience may be richer if you are able to enroll in some cool business courses, you should bear in mind that if you want to concentrate on business, you should pursue an MBA. Having said that, I think it can be advantageous to enroll in business courses provided that they make sense in your transcript. Will employers like it? Well, I confess I do not know. But I guess if you take some interesting b-school courses in addition to your law ones you will be able to have an additional (and interesting) topic of conversation during an interview. Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:29:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26685 Just want to clarify, again, my comments as they are easily misconstrued: 1) Cross-registering in your allied B-school is great for your education, and were I in Penn I'd jump at the chance to be in Wharton. 2) I just don't think it matters TO EMPLOYERS significantly (unless you take a full MBA). I reemphasize the context we've been discussing. Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:31:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26686 and what about Europeans with LLM education or work experience in China? Remember, some Magic Circle firms had a big head start getting into China. Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:05:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26701 Dear Ivan, well reality is that I don't want to compete with people you mentioned in your last post (mandarin is, I am afraid, essential in this sense). I just want to have a good experience in the USA and if possible meet new potential client on a market still not discovered by Italians. Staying where the business is is something that I don't want to do as I see my future back to Italy after two years of USA.... maybe with good connection in LA or NY. What I was saying about China was referring to a different context (i.e. the fact that if you are an Italian company and you are looking for a lawyer to work with for a project in China it's really, really difficult to find the right man for you!) Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:32:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26710 It makes sense. Good luck! Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:54:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26715 Dear Ivan, I do understand that the certificate program at B-school is not why I applied for an LL.M, but like you mentioned it will enrich my experience, plus I believe that for corporate law a strong understadning of financial subjects is very helpful which is what I was hoping to gain by undertaking the advanced program at Stern. At the end of the day if I have to make a choice between 2 brilliant schools, im just trying to safeguard my interests to the maximum extent possible. Nevertheless, I appreciate the points put forth by you and josepidal and understand that employers dont care very much about my base in finance. So basically, its the name of the University that matters and if you're lucky and get good grades then its a good start. On a different note however, I have received an acceptance from Columbia today. Ivan, since you have graduated from NYU, do you think NYU has any advantage over Columbia where placement rate is concerned. Is there any criteria (from your experience) that you think I should consider in order to make a decision. Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:10:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26725 From an academic perspective, I would say that unless you want to specialize in tax law, NYU is not substantially better than Columbia in any field, so I guess you will have to compare the academic programmes and the courses offered in order to reach a decision. Regarding placement, I do not have any data that could allow me to compare placement rates among LLMs that graduated from Columbia and NYU - sorry for that. In any case, I believe you will have decent job prospects no matter which school you choose. Good luck in your decision! Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:58:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26737 Anecdotal evidence hints that (outside Tax), NYU and Columbia are about even in employability. Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:55:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26739 Thanks for the insight. It has been very informative and helpful. I guess its no point thinking too hard about such minute details. All the best to everyone and thanks once again. Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:09:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26751 hey I been a passive reader of dis forum n these posts make for one hulluva interestin readin ..besides being informative, of course. I have been admitted to UCLA with scholarship but im still waitin for the "big four" to respond. Nevertheless, id like to ask dis: would d prospects of findin a job in USA be easier being an asian in CA? considerin d hot debate here abt india being the hot market n CA-asian connection... Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:16:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26752 Hint: There's a discussion about UCLA somewhere in this forum. Giveaway: It's very, very close. Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:22:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26753 I can't really speak to the employability of NYU v Columbia but the job fair may differ a bit between the schools. The Columbia students get interviewed at the same times as all the other Ivies (Penn, Harvard, Yale) which may affect the employers present at the job fair. The Ivy League job fair is an all round weird experience as each interview takes place in a hotel room (complete with bed and everything - very odd). The NYU job fair, from my understanding, is in an open plan hall so you can hear the person next to you being interviewed which is also weird. If you are interested in international law I think NYU does a better job at placing their LLM grads in internships and provides stipends for them. Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:40:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26754 thanx josepidal i had read tht already...n was equally confused after readin it... hence d query!!!!!! Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:03:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26761 Stanford participates: - in the Columbia Job Fair held in New York City at the end of January of each year (in cooperation with Yale, Harvard, Columbia, University of Chicago, University of Michigan and University of Virginia); but also - in the new "West Coast LL.M. Job Fair" to be held this year on Friday, April 13 in Los Angeles (in cooperation with UCLA, Berkeley and many other West Coast law schools). So if you are interested in landing a job in the U.S. either in California or in New York, Stanford is definitely a top choice. Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:06:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26762 Okay, okay, let's not go into yueping mode here. This is definitely true, but the context was choosing a lower-ranked regional favorite (i.e., anyone but Stanford who's still well-ranked) over Harvard, Columbia, NYU, etc., etc. Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:24:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26765 You’re right Jose. I am just very excited to celebrate this new Job Fair in Los Angeles which is an important step for the whole LLM community and to let other people know about it. Maybe one day Yale, Harvard or Columbia will participate in this new event. Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:30:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26767 Jose, why did you say that? I was expecting that typical post saying that UPenn rocks, etc. Talking seriously now, I guess there were 2 discussions going on here: a) What makes you different makes you beautiful? Lower-ranked regional favorites (man, I loved that) vs. higher-ranked schools. Mainstream markets (NYC) vs. not-so-obvious markets for LLMs (Chicago, CA or TX). b) LLMs with cross-registration with b-schools vs. LLMs with no courses at a b-school. Would an LLM candidate from an university that has a great business school (e.g. UPenn, Northwestern, UChicago) LLM be in a better position in comparison with an LLM from a higher-ranked university because they may attend classes at their respective business schools? (yueping and his clone will love this question, eh?) Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:07:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26803 @Ivan: UPenn only rocks when it's not yueping making the argument. But how can you leave out HBS? Come on, I'm sure I can cite a number of irrelevant surveys and articles that show you HBS is still close to Wharton in the rankings! @Marina: It shouldn't be hard at all. The only problem is that HLS, Columbia and NYU students would have to buy their own plane tickets for California. Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:42:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26834 hehehe I did not forget HBS - I just wanted to mention great business schools of law schools that are not among the top 5 in the law school rankings... but HBS is ranked among the best b-schools in every single ranking. By the way, George W Bush is a Harvard MBA, isn´t he? Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:05:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26836 For what it is worth, I don't think doing a "lower ranking" LLM is worth it for the business school. Legal employers are looking for lawyers not business grads and since research shows people usually hire people who are like themselves, unless your employer went to business school, any business school connections will probably not register. Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:46:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26842 By the way, George W Bush is a Harvard MBA, isn´t he? Ivan, don't be a yueping. (Sorry, we're Barack territory.) Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:49:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26843 No "yuepingisms" from my side... But I thought that you would cheer for the Clintons... After all, Bill is your neighbor, isn´t he? Thu, 15 Mar 2007 20:10:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26874 Well... I stay aloof from politics but some people here would support Obama just because he's running against Hilary. Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:38:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26886 Hey, Josepidal, I am also in hls and would like to clarify a few facts here, regarding the job market: I agree that the market is better than it was a few years back, but very many of our classmates still have no jobs. These include those taking 'in demand subjects' such as corporate law, securities law and capital markets regulations and have good grades. I know a few like that. I think many factors come into play in this job hunt thing, especially if one already has an llm from an overseas university, the region of the world one comes from, etc. I know many people from continents and subcontinents viewed as having nothing to offer from a capitalistic viewpoint,not being in demand from legal firms.Same case for last year.Sometimes the hammer also falls on people from eastern europe. The lucky ones this year are latinos,chinese,japanese,germans,and indians mostly. I was just speaking with April the other day (in the job hunt) and I can tell you for a fact that your statistics are highly questionable. Long on conjecture and hype. Short on facts. It is possible to get a job in the US for llms but it takes hard hard work. Even for llms from the top 4, including harvard.You should also try international jobs like worldbank but those tend to be elitist and demand stellar resumes,grades,work experiences and ideologies. Goodluck to all Fri, 16 Mar 2007 00:13:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26888 Forgive me if I have said this already (I have a feeling that I have made this point somewhere else) but whether you will succeed in getting a job will largely depend on what area you want to go into. For example, if you want to get a litigation job it is extremely difficult for you to even get an interview at a NY firm if you are an LLM. I had almost three years litigation experience before I came to the US and it was tough to get a job in that department whereas I had zero corporate experience and got a job in project finance at Skadden pretty easily. Ridiculous. Especially since I come from a common law country - they would still rather take an American JD with no experience for litigation. Skadden told me that they never ever interview LLMs for litigation no matter how qualified they are. Fri, 16 Mar 2007 00:28:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26889 Flygirl, Agreed. And my point is that even the so called in demand corporate areas are quite hard to break into for llms (foreigners in america), even from so called top tier schools, for the reasons I discussed above.Not impossible,but very difficult. This is to counter impressions given otherwise in postings on this thread that in some so called tier 1 school,where I also am an llm,(almost)everyone has a job/has not had a very difficult time sourcing one. Luck to all~ Fri, 16 Mar 2007 00:44:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26890 Yes, I am definitely agreeing with you. I think the visa issue also makes some firms very reluctant to hire LLMs. That being said, you only need one job so even if you just get a couple of interviews you could be lucky. My experience with Skadden was a total fluke. They initially didn't even give me an interview and then obviously had a lot of their summers turn them down and found themselves short-staffed so called me up. Very weird. A previous poster mentioned that it is hard for LLMs because we/they compete directly with the JDs. In fact, I think it is worse than that - the firms usually only turn to LLMs when they find out which of their JDs are returning from the summer class so in that respect we are after the JDs in the pecking order. If we were to compete directly with the JDs I actually think it would be easier to get a job since most of us have more work experience. Fri, 16 Mar 2007 01:24:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26892 Oh yeah, I totally agree with you as well,Flygirl.Most llms have, one, solid experience in competitive legal areas,two,competitive streak,ambition and desire to excel (which is what brings us here in the first place,usually leaving good jobs overseas) and third,know what it means to be an employee in the maddeningly busy field of law.We have no illusions, we know things on the ground are very different from the theories in law school(many of which sound sexy and grand-but when one gets down to work,you realise alot of it at associate level is mundane,dreary,detail-oriented,low-level and stressful,not to mention the hours,plus you get all the blame if anything at detail level goes wrong, but you suck it up and move on!). I think if the law firm partners/hirers were honest, they would say we make better associates/employees,but they prefer their own so we come as second best,when the jds have made their picks and there are gaps to be filled. Good luck with Skadden,Flygirl.That is really an A1 firm and I hope all goes well with you.Show 'em what we llms are made of! Cheers,all.Good luck with classes and jobsearches. Fri, 16 Mar 2007 04:57:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26901 I was just speaking with April the other day (in the job hunt) and I can tell you for a fact that your statistics are highly questionable. Long on conjecture and hype. Short on facts. Again, I think I placed a context to my "statistics." Among others, I emphasized that it's only mid-March and that my denominator consists of the people who do exactly what Career Services (i.e., April Stockfleet) has advised them to do. I don't want to discuss this in public, but you might be aware that there are people who are doing exactly what they were told NOT to do, which affects all the Harvard LLMs negatively. For the public discussion, I'd request that you specify which of the qualifications in my original posts you disagree with, and why. Again, this is a complex question and there are many factors. Also, I would double-check some of your information. For example, Germans have both an incredible advantage and disadvantage, the latter being they have problems talking to the New York office of an international firm because the German office is desperate to get them and would get mad at the New York office for even discussing a US job. For the private discussion, feel free to PM me. Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:48:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26932 let's not draw blood here.my main point was to underscore the point made previously and to clarify your misleading impression that so called tier1 law school llms find it easy to get jobs in america. my point is,that is far from the truth.many llms have a very very tough time getting jobs,despite taking all career guide advise,and using networks.even harvard has very many desperately-seeking llms without jobs. can you dispute that josepidal? good luck to all~ Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:51:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26940 No one's drawing blood, we haven't quite gone that far even with yueping. It's just a little hard to respond to you when you don't go into any of the specific points I made. I understand what you mean, that it's attractive to talk on a "bottom line" basis. However, that's not as easy if you understand the factors that go into this. First, I didn't deny that all LLMs, not very many, have a very, very tough time. Everything flygirl said is of course true, we're JD substitutes and the question is if your overpriced Harvard diploma is worth more than a JD diploma from a lower-ranked school. Nevertheless, we do have evidence that in many cases, people do say yes to that. Second, well, I'm afraid some people do not take the career office's advice. Like I told you, I've seen people do the exact opposite. On the other hand, I've seen someone doing what was recommended, and getting callbacks in Fall with no preliminary interviews (that is, fly direct to New York for final round). Someone with no work experience and not from China, India, Germany, etc. Again, I don't want to discuss any of this in public, which is why I said I'd love to talk in private, as I have with other classmates. Third, no one said much about using networks. As LLMs, it's presumed that we generally have no New York networks to speak of. I know a number of people who've found jobs, and very few were facilitated by home country networks. Finally, I said it's just mid-March. I think we're talking with somewhat different presumptions. However, I do have reasons for making mine, including seeing people with all the disadvantages (no work experience, insignificant country, etc.) do well in their job hunt. Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:11:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26964 :) I guess its different for everyone then. regards Sun, 18 Mar 2007 03:51:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26990 No one's drawing blood, we haven't quite gone that far even with yueping why do you always bring up my name, what did I possibly do to you ? Sun, 18 Mar 2007 04:57:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#26992 Nothing that hasn't endeared you to us. It's just convenient to use "yueping" as shorthand to refer to a particularly colorful mode of posting. Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:06:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#27232 I have been readin this threads for quite long now and have to thnk Josepidal, Ivan and all the rest, some tips were illuminating, some others confusin but also useful. Anyways here lies my situation. I am from Argentina (american resident though)I just got my degree (am only 23) and have very few experience (say 11/2 years). I ve been admited to UCLA recently to do my LLM but also have an offer to intern in Dubai for a team of lawyers. As I ve read statistics sayin different things I wonder what the chances to get a Job are. and when u speak about "getting a job", what kind of job r we talkin about? Or better how much money r we talkin about? Anyways I hope some of u can clarify my doubts as I dont want to throw away my lifetime savings to find out that studying in the US did not get me a well paid job. Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:23:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#27236 Ok, here´s my personal opinion: if I were you, I would go to Dubai. You would gather some work experience that would be really valuable in the future - and it would not jeopardize your chances of admission into an LLM program in the US. Besides, you are very young, and a couple of years of work experience before pursuing an LLM would do you no harm. When I talked about getting a job, I was referring to jobs in NY Law Firms (salaries of 160K)/ Big 4s (salary of 85-90K). Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:51:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#27242 Yes, as Ivan says, everyone refers to the "Big Law" jobs in New York with salaries of 160K (could get higher, some say). Smaller firms may not have the resources to handle your immigration needs. However, you should give more information on your career plans, your Dubai offer, and your past experience. Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:52:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/24884/last#27579 However, you should give more information on your career plans, your Dubai offer, and your past experience. Thanks to u both for the answer. The Dubai thing is not highly well paid (on top of everything considering how expensive it is to live in this place). As for my career plans I seem not to have things as clear as many of you, I just want to further my studies in something near to intl bus or litigation and arbitration. I am also interested in the corporate approach of law. I ve had very few experience; worked part time for a year in a legal firm back in Argentina and I am currently working for an Energy Company in the Middle East Anyways, I do all this not only for the purpose of increasing my knowledge but as I said to get a decent job, which in my country seems to be harder and harder every day (specially for young lawyers). So... my desicion will be taken during this weekend (Arab weekend on Th and Fr...I know it is weird). Thnks again for the fast response Keep with posts that are very useful to everyone