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Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
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malda  
Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Posts: 11 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Hi everyone, Fri Feb 23, 2007 04:09 AM I was wondering if anyone could help me with making a decision between BU and UPenn. I applied to BU's Banking and Finance Law and UPenn with concentration in Banking and Securities law. I've tried to make a decision between these two but it's proving to be very hard. I already have a JD from a top 20 school. But I wanted to specialize in securities regulations area and hopefully when I'm done with my LLM, I'd like to work in this practice at a major firm. In terms of future employment perspective, can anyone give me some advice? Thanks! |
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| josepidal Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 237 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Don't focus solely on the banking and securities subjects. Realistically, you can only take two or three subjects per term from the natural pool (Securities Regulation, Capital Market Regulation or some other exchange-related subject, Banking, International Finance, M&A, Corporate Governance, etc.). You'd probably want a non-corporate or cross-registered subject each term, since this may well be your last year in school.Fri Feb 23, 2007 09:01 AM I'm in the HLS International Finance concentration, and two girls dropped out to take unrelated subjects in the last term. [Edited 23 Feb 2007 by josepidal] |
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| malda
Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Posts: 11 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Thanks, josepidal. But I don't think you quite answered my question. Fri Feb 23, 2007 04:22 PM I'm trying to make a decision between BU and UPenn. BU's banking and finance law program is strictly for LLM students whereas at UPenn LLM students take classes together with JDs students and pick their area of interest. I'm wondering what employers would prefer -- the specialization of the school (BU) or the reputation (UPenn). |
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| josepidal Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 237 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
I didn't because I'm from HLS and shy away from commenting on school reputations (unless HLS is involved).Fri Feb 23, 2007 09:17 PM In my honest opinion, as a general answer, I think reputation brings a greater plus to LLM employability. The particular curriculum is less important because most law schools have these subjects anyway, even if you're not required to take all of them. Some students get corporate jobs with just a Corporations class and something else, and consider that most employers see only your Fall term subjects and grades or none at all. I also don't think that employers are particularly impressed if you cross-registered in the business school, unless you get an MBA (not that cross-registering in a place like Wharton won't give you benefits in terms of your education). You might think it's arbitrary and it might be, but we're talking about the employer perspective here. As another general answer, I also prefer taking classes with JDs, as playing beer pong with them is more fun than any group of LLMs, excepting the Latinos. You're in America, so you should make the effort to meet American students, particularly if you're thinking of working in America. Some groups of LLMs are notorious for never really mingling, and I think socializing and getting exposed to other people is as important (or more important) than class work. Applied to your particular context, my answers might imply that I'm advising you to take UPenn, but I'm in no position to do that. I can tell you that BU has one of the best Banking and Finance programs. I'm doing research on Banking and Securities regulation, and was immediately referred to one of the most senior professors at BU, and am using a lot of her articles. |
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AndrewDeAbiAad
 Joined: 29 Jan 2007 Posts: 26 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Congrats for both admissions !Fri Feb 23, 2007 09:49 PM I completely agree with josepidal concerning the employer's point of view ... I've also been accepted in BU's banking LLM and having a hard time deciding whether to accept or not. BU's ranking is below the top 10 but the school, the people and the city seem very very nice. Still waiting for Columbia,NYU, Michigan's ... decisions (to name a few). Bottom line question: is BU's banking LLM a recognized valuable asset in one's employability record in the US? Does it come near the prestige of schools like Columbia and NYU? (by the way i'm a Lebanese LLM candidate) josepidal you seem to be a guy in the know (read a great deal of your posts on this forum), your answer would be much appreciated. Regards. [Edited 23 Feb 2007 by AndrewDeAbiAad] |
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| malda
Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Posts: 11 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Thanks, joespidal. I appreciate your advice. I guess I kind of wanted something different -- after three years getting JD, I was looking for something different. Had it not been for the ranking factor and employment, I don't think I would have had any hesitation choosing BU over UPenn. But I guess, this is just reality. *sigh*.Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:48 PM AndrewDeAbiAd, have you had the chance to some of the alumni from BU's Banking program? I did get a chance and they all gave very positive reviews. Which makes it sooooo much more difficult to make a decision. [Edited 23 Feb 2007 by malda] |
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| josepidal Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 237 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Andrew: I don't really know much outside HLS, so let me use that as an example: I don't think being from HLS' International Finance Concentration offers a noticeable advantage compared to being a general HLS LLM. There was an interviewer today, for example, and he asked people more about their M&A class (which is not a core subject of any concentration, but one of the most important corporate subjects) than about being in a concentration.Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:11 AM Unless you're in a Tax LLM, I don't think a particular concentration enjoys a higher reputation than the school's general reputation. (Of course, BU's reputation is quite good, even if one is hard pressed to argue it has the cachet of the Top 5 or 10. There are JDs who take that Banking & Finance LLM, which says something) However, you should e-mail the BU Banking & Finance staff and ask to talk to alumni, if you're interested. Also, I think being in BU has hidden networking strengths. For example, you can go to events at other schools such as Harvard and BC, and talk to the same lawyers who visit. As with everything about networking, you just need to put in a little effort. |
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| josepidal Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 237 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Sat Feb 24, 2007 01:24 AM Had it not been for the ranking factor and employment, I don't think I would have had any hesitation choosing BU over UPenn. But I guess, this is just reality. *sigh*. By the way, it may be different since you're a JD from a Top 20 school. An employer may view that plus a very focused LLM differently, but I don't know. Also, I'd get an opinion on how far apart the so-called rankings are after the so-called "Top 6". |
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| AndrewDeAbiAad
Joined: 29 Jan 2007 Posts: 26 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Thank you for your replies, I'm amazed by the number of people who seem to really enjoy helping others. From where I come it's a dog-eat-dog experience.Sat Feb 24, 2007 08:39 PM I already personally know a number of BU's banking and finance LLM alumni (my phone interviewer told me that Lebanese students are among the best in their LLM class). I even know some Boston residents and a Harvard MBA student to name a few ... they all gave me great insights on life and study in Boston. The problem is that ALL of the Lebanese BU LLM holders have returned home after their studies. I suspect that it's due to the fact that they couldn't land a job after graduation, but of course they would never admit to that (because it's viewed as a personal failure). The issue seems to be with the "prestige" inherent to law school rankings. BU has everything going for them except that piece of information published in some magazines. Personally I know that rankings aren't everything but for the real life employer it seems that it's a crucial factor. I'm even more alarmed by the fact that some people are questioning NYU's LLM credibility while I regard this university as one of my top choices (still waiting for their decision)! Completely at a loss. I know for a fact that BU is highly regarded in my country but the thing is that I desperately want to flee my country before I'm forced to participate in yet another civil war (just two days ago three bombs were disarmed in my neighborhood)! Working in the US or elsewhere after graduation is VITAL. Thus I only seek to maximize my job finding chances. Logisitcally Boston is close to New York which is a plus and the administration people are just GREAT but I don't know if that is enough to compensate for their school's 20+ ranking. It's one of the most difficult decision I'll ever have to make. Bottom line: is BU's banking and finance program considered by the market as a one of the top LLMs? Or is it regarded as yet another "academic product"? P.S.: I am interested in working for an NGO such as the World Bank, WTO, ... not restricted to private law firms which seem a lot harder to integrate. |
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| josepidal Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 237 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Some points.Sat Feb 24, 2007 09:19 PM 1) I hope that if you enter an LLM program, you approach it with the opposite of a dog eat dog mentality. LLMs all have a law degree already and are expected to be more mature, and in a practical sense, there are few incentives to step over all your classmates in a quest to get the highest grade average in the school. You just need to pass, or get high but not necessarily spectacular grades to get a job or into an SJD program. You should aim to be enriched more by the relationships (with professors, classmates, and JD classmates alike) you build more than what you get in the formal classroom environment itself. In fact, Dean Kagan told the HLS 1Ls and LLMs that they had already won by getting admitted, and there's no need to be obsessed with competition. 2) I sympathize with your frustrations with your country. I agree that BU both has an incredible finance program and that the rankings (and possibly employers) have not yet caught up with this. Note, however, that school prestige is just one factor in the job hunt. If anything, it makes it easier to get a foot in the door, but once you're sitting in an interview, you're an individual and your personality, grades, and networking efforts come to bear. If it were all about prestige, then HLS and Yale LLMs would always beat, say, NYU and Columbia LLMs for choice jobs, but that's just not the case. 3) BU has launched an internship program within its Banking and Finance program, you might note. 4) Getting choice NGO jobs such as World Bank positions involve the same, if not more, competition, in my opinion. 5) Without commenting on which to choose, I think you should consider just how focused a program you want, since BU's is very focused. You do well when you do something you're passionate about, and it may be better to look for a US job with good grades from a slightly lesser ranked school than with average grades from a slightly higher ranked school. |
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| AndrewDeAbiAad
Joined: 29 Jan 2007 Posts: 26 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
I totally agree with you on each and every point. Note that the competition here is actually extremely fierce due to the size (10452 km2) and volatile situation of the country and I assure you that I certainly do not adhere to the blood thirsty competition mentality. Despite that I managed to land an internship in one of the top 5 firms but life is still a living hell out here.Sat Feb 24, 2007 09:58 PM When I enquired about BU's post graduation and internship services the answer was that they would help each candidate to land an internship but didn't mention any specific internship program. Could you please provide a URL for the program you mentioned? I will also explore their site further. Very constructive insights as usual. Thank you for your time. |
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| josepidal Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 237 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
I heard about it from the students themselves, actually, but I think it's described in their website.Sun Feb 25, 2007 01:29 AM As always, your best resource for finding a job is yourself, and you don't need to wait to get an internship. |
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| josepidal Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 237 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Anyone get feedback regarding the Morin Center's new internship program that's being launched this term? I'm curious as it's an innovation in this field of interest.
Wed Mar 14, 2007 05:58 AM |
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| AndrewDeAbiAad
Joined: 29 Jan 2007 Posts: 26 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Here it is, got it from:Wed Mar 14, 2007 08:38 AM www.bu.edu/law/prospective/llm/banking/index.html "New to the program: financial services law internship Announcing a new course which will allow students of the Graduate Program in Banking and Financial Law to work at an off-campus internship. (...) Students work under the supervision of a lawyer and a faculty advisor who will ensure that they have a meaningful, relevant and rigorous experience. This course is open only to students who are studying for the concentration in Financial Services Transactions, for which it is a requirement." There are all in all 6 concentrations: American Banking and Financial Law Compliance Management Financial Services Transactions International Banking and Financial Law Lending and Credit Transactions Securities Transactions Thinking of going for the International Banking and Financial Law concentration, could be useful for UN/World Bank/WTO ... job applications. Any insights? [Edited 14 Mar 2007 by AndrewDeAbiAad] |
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| malda
Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Posts: 11 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Hi again, Wed Mar 21, 2007 04:09 AM Andrew: have you made a decision? I was wondering what your choice was. Today, I got an acceptance package from NYU. For NYU, I applied to their Trade Regulation program. I am happy but still have not made a full decision yet. I don't know how this concentration and having an LLM at NYU would help me v. BU's banking and finance program. Good points about NYU: it's in NYC -- more opportunity, network, etc. in the top 5(but only in terms of JD rankings) Stern business school program Bad points: Far more expensive than BU (55,000 v. 80,000 (this is just my calcuation in terms of considering the cost of stern and living expenses). Big class (425 ppl) Cherry picking classes among JD classes This is the dilema I'm having right now. I thought it would be helpful somewhat if I could get an insight on your choice of school since I think we applied to some of the same ones. Would be great to share some ideas. Thanks! |
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| malda
Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Posts: 11 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Oh, one more thing. Wed Mar 21, 2007 04:14 AM Since you guys seemd to be interested in the internship program. It seems that it's only offered to those who choose the Financial Service concentration. I inquired as to what kind of internship it was -- paid or unpaid. BU says that it is an unpaid internship since foreign students cannot work for paid jobs unless it was with the school (RA or TA jobs). CPT and OPT can be only used after 9 months in school. |
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| ihr
Joined: 20 Mar 2007 Posts: 3 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
It is remarkable that some people tell people to look at the rankings when it is for their school, yet sweep the rankings under the carpet when it concerns other institutions.Wed Mar 21, 2007 04:29 AM I also think, like josepital, that reputation brings a greater plus to LLM employability, and I believe it certainly adds credibility to your application. That said, there is simply no way a reasonable person can claim that both schools are equal in terms of prestige and employability, when the facts overwhelmingly say otherwise. Boston University is what, number 24 in the US News 2007 ranking, whereas Penn Law is number 7 in the same ranking. Heck, we are not talking about a slight difference of 1 or 2 places: the fact is, there is and will always be a significant difference between a school in the top 10 and a school which is not even in the top 20, no matter how you look at it. in the top 5(but only in terms of JD rankings) not for long from what I hear... [Edited 21 Mar 2007 by ihr] |
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| AndrewDeAbiAad
Joined: 29 Jan 2007 Posts: 26 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Hi Malda,Wed Mar 21, 2007 07:02 AM I made the deposit for BU but still waiting for NYU's decision (no word also from Michigan and Cornell). NYU and Cornell are still high on my list. I agree with your reasoning concerning the rankings, employability (then again NY is only a short trip from Boston). Money is no object for me so I would definitely go for NYU if accepted there. There's still a question to be answered: what is the real life ranking of these schools? The rare graduate ranking info I got was way too general and didn't take into account some of the other interesting concentrations available to LLMs. There are some posts on this forum that put BU in 7th place for both Tax and Intl. law (still behind NYU though), but what about banking/finance? The ideal would be to get an insight from some hotshot senior partner regarding BU's "prestige" (don't fancy writing like this but it seems that employers DO value this factor a LOT). If money is a concern then BU does seem as a reasonable compromise. I know many students who attended BU's banking LLM, they gave very positive reviews (although didn't land jobs after graduation) and they all fell in love with this city. TIP: An alternative to US legal employment would be one of the emerging arab countries (dubai, qatar, abu dhabi ...). You're paid the double there with an LLM and it's a HUGE job pool for foreigners. I also know for a fact that BU's LLM is highly regarded there. Hope this helps. [Edited 21 Mar 2007 by AndrewDeAbiAad] |
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| josepidal Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 237 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:07 PM That said, there is simply no way a reasonable person can claim that both schools are equal in terms of prestige and employability, when the facts overwhelmingly say otherwise. Boston University is what, number 24 in the US News 2007 ranking, whereas Penn Law is number 7 in the same ranking. Heck, we are not talking about a slight difference of 1 or 2 places: the fact is, there is and will always be a significant difference between a school in the top 10 and a school which is not even in the top 20, no matter how you look at it. Welcome to this thread, yueping clone 2! Strange coincidence to have a first-time poster coming here just to post about Penn Law's rankings! (Note to new Penn Law readers: There is a history and a context behind the above post, and older forum members know it's not a snipe against Penn Law.) By the way, someone mentioned money and compromises. As a general statement, I think advice here has consistently held to put money at the very bottom of your considerations. An additional $10 to 20K will not be relevant in the long term, and meaningless if you aim to get a job and get one (unless you really can't get it before your LLM and your school extends no aid). If you want to pay for a more "prestigious" institution and get its brand name for life (for the many valid reasons discussed, including rankings, unfortunately), you should look at the big picture when thinking about money. |
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| malda
Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Posts: 11 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Thanks all. All of your advice are very helpful and I appreciate it. :)
Wed Mar 21, 2007 03:23 PM |
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| malda
Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Posts: 11 |
NYU Stern program?
oops.. this is supposed to be a new post.
Wed Mar 21, 2007 03:25 PM [Edited 21 Mar 2007 by malda] |
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| ihr
Joined: 20 Mar 2007 Posts: 3 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Wed Mar 21, 2007 07:56 PM Welcome to this thread, yueping clone 2! Strange coincidence to have a first-time poster coming here just to post about Penn Law's rankings! Now this is some warm welcome ! no, I am not yuping 2 or whatever (is that a name or a thinly veiled insult ?) - if I was some other person who already knew this board before, I would certainly have written MUCH before and given the person my opinion sooner, since the deadlines are expiring soon (if they have not already). Notice that the initial message was posted by malda on Feb 23, which was one month ago. Since apparently we are not allowed to talk about Penn on this board for some reason, I will simply state that "brand name' is important, and you should not only focus on how the institution is perceived in your home country. You are going to a school in the US after all, so what matters is how the school is viewed in the US. And who knows what the future may hold ? You may end up wanting to work either in the US or in some other country, and therefore basing yourself only on the supposed reputation of a school in your country may eventually lead to closing some doors. Someone mentionned a similar debate - NYU v. Cornell - and to that person I would tell him to read what I just said above. I am not going to bother to pull the ranking numbers of these schools (especially since we are aparently not allowed to post about a school's rankings!) so I suggest you look those out yourself. [Edited 21 Mar 2007 by ihr] |
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| Account deleted | Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Take nyu any day.Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:46 PM It has one of the highest,if not the highest employability rates for llms in the US (together with Columbia) especially for corporate law firms-lots of money,ignoring the dreary hours. Do not give up nyu or columbia for anything if you want a corporate law firm/big 4 firm in america. |
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| malda
Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Posts: 11 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Thanks, Kay. Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:26 AM For NYU, I applied for the Trade Regulation. Do you have any information or insight on NYU's trade regulation program? Thanks in advance. |
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| ihr
Joined: 20 Mar 2007 Posts: 3 |
Banking & Securities LLM - BU or UPenn?
Thu Mar 22, 2007 01:26 AM Do not give up nyu or columbia for anything if you want a corporate law firm/big 4 firm in america. Nor HLS for that matter. |
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