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LL.M. Discussion Board > United Kingdom - Ireland > Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL

Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL

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equity's darling Joined: 28 Nov 2006 Posts: 269	Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL Tue Jun 12, 2007 04:30 PM I suppose it depends on where you study and what your total package is. If the BCL is the only significant thing on your application, then I guess I agree with your point above. But i think that if you are very strong in other areas, then 2:1's from the BCL are probably sufficent. In saying this I was thinking in the context of myself and my canadian peers. I personally know three people working in MC firms who don't have masters degrees at all. They have first class degrees in underghrad (BA) and top ten percent in their LLB's., both in canada. They then articled here for one year to get their call to the bar and then jumped over to huge MC firms. When i wrote that 2:1's are proabbaly suffiecent, i was thinking of these three people, and I suppose myself in that I have similar credentials. If they gotseveral MC offers without masters degrees at all, then surely a 2:1 from oxford would only strenghten their chances, not diminish them. That was my thought process. [Edited by equity's darling on 12 Jun 2007]
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irishguy24 Joined: 02 Apr 2007 Posts: 34	Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL Fri Jun 15, 2007 08:35 AM .. [Edited by irishguy24 on 15 Apr 2008]
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fg Joined: 02 Feb 2006 Posts: 329	Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL Fri Jun 15, 2007 03:06 PM heh, heh. Yes this whole discussion thread has become a bit ridiculous. I have an inherent dislike of deciding whether to do something based on how well I think I am going to do at the end. This creates a "fear of failure" mentality that can prevent you from ever achieving anything that is difficult or risky. It is self-defeating. Also, the idea of not doing the BCL because I'd be worried about not getting a distinction misses the point that study is supposed to be about the journey not the destination. Sigh. Back to work.
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irishguy24 Joined: 02 Apr 2007 Posts: 34	Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL Fri Jun 15, 2007 03:21 PM [Edited by irishguy24 on 15 Jun 2007]
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equity's darling Joined: 28 Nov 2006 Posts: 269	Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL Fri Jun 15, 2007 04:31 PM ok, if this thread wasn't cooky before, it definately is now! Now that we've settled the above debate, I have an actual, substantive question: what grades does one need, generally (say in the context of cantab llm bc that's where i'm going) in order to get into the phd?? Flygirl, I know you went to columbia and are now (very unfortunately!!!) going to oxford for the doctrotae instead of cambridge, so maybe you can answer this. I don't think you'd have to get all firsts in the llm, would you? Do you think two firsts and two 2:1's would do it?? Irishguy, you must know some people carrying on into the phd, what's your view?
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fg Joined: 02 Feb 2006 Posts: 329	Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL Fri Jun 15, 2007 05:02 PM To be honest, I don't think that it is as much to do with grades (and individual papers) as your overall research agenda and your academic references and publications. I wrote a 1,000 word research proposal and had three referees (two of whom had supervised me in substantive pieces of work). In my proposal I didn't mention my grades/individual courses but I did mention previous research I had done and how it had tied in. I imagine they looked at my transcript but I think, at the research level, they'd be more interested in whether your professor=referees saw you as an original and sophisticated thinker and writer as opposed to someone who just sits good exams. So I imagine that provided you get a solid LLM then getting a first wouldn't be so important. I would work on building up a relationship with a professor in your area who will write you a good reference and developing an interesting research proposal. [btw, can someone explain Irishguy's reference to his forum mom above? So confused] [Edited by fg on 15 Jun 2007]
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irishguy24 Joined: 02 Apr 2007 Posts: 34	Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL Fri Jun 15, 2007 05:06 PM >_>_>_>_>_> [Edited by irishguy24 on 15 Apr 2008]
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irishguy24 Joined: 02 Apr 2007 Posts: 34	Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL Fri Jun 15, 2007 05:08 PM sorry flygirl, I'm a little bonkers today. Ignore it as the nonsense it is.
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irishguy24 Joined: 02 Apr 2007 Posts: 34	Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL Fri Jun 15, 2007 05:17 PM >_>_>+>+>+>>+ [Edited by irishguy24 on 15 Apr 2008]
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equity's darling Joined: 28 Nov 2006 Posts: 269	Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL Fri Jun 15, 2007 05:21 PM very interesting... flygirl, did you have all firsts at columbia? irishgoy and flyirl, do most people get funding for the phd if they are admitted? i find it hard to believe that many people would pay for the full three years themselves... [Edited by equity's darling on 15 Jun 2007]
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irishguy24 Joined: 02 Apr 2007 Posts: 34	Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL Fri Jun 15, 2007 05:28 PM In regards to my comments, I'm only going by what was sent around to us, flygirl was actually admitted, so she's probably your best bet re reliable information. Most go for funding yes, they apply to government bodies and internal trusts and subject specific scholarships. Securing funding is a lot more difficult than being admitted unfortunately (again flygirl will be of more help here) :-(
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fg Joined: 02 Feb 2006 Posts: 329	Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL Fri Jun 15, 2007 08:03 PM The LLM at Columbia isn't graded in terms of firsts etc but I had all As and A minuses (no A+s and no Bs). I am not sure that would have been enough to do the PhD if I hadn't actually formed a good relationship with one professor at Columbia. I took 2 seminars with him and wrote a dissertation with him for which I got all As. The other professors didn't give me the time of day. If you think you might want to do your PhD at Cambridge then I would probably do a Masters at Toronto, which is cheaper, and then get admitted to the PhD after that. I think it is much easier to get funding for the PhD than the LLM. I got into the Cambridge LLM a few years back and got ZERO funding but got full funding this time. That could have also been because of the additional Columbia qualification but I tend to think there is more money for PhD candidates because they are going to contribute more back to the institution in terms of research.
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equity's darling Joined: 28 Nov 2006 Posts: 269	Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL Fri Jun 15, 2007 09:21 PM Interesting. I'm actually leaning towards the opposite, i.e. do the LLM at Cambridge and then the PHD at either Toronto or UBC. My reasons are primarily that I'd like to live in canada while doing the doctorate, preferably on the lovely west coast. also, if i were to teach, being in canada is advantageous in that i could do two years in residence of the phd and then go into teaching and finish the remainder of the doctorate over then next three or so years. It draws it out, to be sure; but it also gives me the chance to continually check out the job market here...
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fg Joined: 02 Feb 2006 Posts: 329	Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL Fri Jun 15, 2007 09:26 PM Well Toronto is a great school too but I wonder whether by the time you get to the UK you'll enjoy it so much there that you won't want to leave...that was my experience with the US anyway. Nine months is very short. Actually, I thought about doing my doctorate at Toronto as I heard Dyzenhaus is great but then I visited Toronto and didn't like the town very much plus we weren't sure about work for my husband there.
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fg Joined: 02 Feb 2006 Posts: 329	Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL Fri Jun 15, 2007 09:39 PM I guess I just wonder about spending so much on a Cambridge LLM if it is going to be only a step to a PhD. If you were to stay on at Cambridge and get your (fully funded) PhD there you could attend the LLM classes for free and your PhD degree would trump your LLM (thus, possibly, making your expensive LLM less important). And if you went to Canada after your Cambridge LLM then your Canadian PhD would make your Cambridge LLM less important (since employers usually look at your last degree) so again devaluing all the money you spent on your Cambridge LLM. Not sure if I am making sense.
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equity's darling Joined: 28 Nov 2006 Posts: 269	Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:25 PM that makes sense. I agree that generally your last degree is the one that matters (up to the LLm, ie the llm trumps the llb, which trumps the ba), however it seems that many people at the law faculties here in canada often follow a pattern that i've laid out. ie get the big impressive LLM, which has status just because it's hugely competative to get in, but then the phd is often an esoteric academicy few years spent at a canadian uni. it seems that by then, ie post llm, the schools don't really care where you do the phd. Maybe im totally wrong, but that's the impression one gets when you look at the faculty profiles-- very few bother doign the big name phd, but most do have a big name llm. Maybe it's less competative to get into a phd than into an LLm? I know that sounds backwards, but I think it may be true. LLM's at the very prestigious uni's get SO MANY apps from all over the world that they tend to require really exceptional grades to make offers. But I think the number of apps to PHD programmes is much much lower, since only the academically oreinted people would apply (whereas for the one year LLM, you get all the academics plus all the practioners applying). Now, it's true that all those applying to the PHD [probably have great grades from the LLM, which would suggest high competation, but I wonder if you have some awards for writing, and a pub,ication or two, and references speaking to your research writing ability and potential success ina phd, and if your proposal is lucid and fits within the mandate of a supervisor, well then maybe all these things might make up for, say, two firsts and two 2:1's in the LLM?? I really don't know; I just suspect that the PHD has way fewer applicants and therefore they take a much more nuanced and detailed individual look at each app, rather than simply rejecting you based on your GPA (as they tend to at the LLM level) what do you think fig?
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