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Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL

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equity's darling

Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 268
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Thu Apr 05, 2007 05:35 PM
I like sushi
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Busingye
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 140
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Thu Apr 05, 2007 05:36 PM
okay...i'll be serious for a moment:P there is really no getting round the fact that reason leans heavier on the side of E's D and FG. That said, life is not one big ball of reason. The prettiest girl does not always marry the most handsome fella (otherwise some of us would be in real trouble). You have but one life...try to live it in such a way that you have as few regrets as possible.

For my part I am not sure i would not look back at 50 and wish i'd not seen how its done the other side. In the end it boiled down to just that for me...

So there u have it. It doesn't make much sense, it is a great expense both in terms of time and money. But i am still going for it. Thats me, thats Baron, thats AnnaC, and thats a few other blokes. If u can avoid the temptation, please do. but if u have some time and a little money to spare, stop by!

[Edited 05 Apr 2007 by Busingye]
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Busingye
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 140
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Thu Apr 05, 2007 05:37 PM
I like sushi


Lol:P
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equity's darling

Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 268
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Thu Apr 05, 2007 06:04 PM
Fair enough. They say it's better to regret the things you did, than the thing's you didn't do. So, even if it turns out to be a great waste of time and resources, you're ok in the final analysis. Besides, it sounds like you won't regret it at all.

The only nagging question I have from this perspective is, if the choice is motivated by a "hair in the wind, live life to the fullest' philosophy, then, well, there are MANY, MANY beter ways to spend your time than memorizing ratios in order to barf them back in a three hour pie eating contest.
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Busingye
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 140
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Thu Apr 05, 2007 06:04 PM
Okay, here's the deal...the title of your thread was the BCL vs the HLS LLM...it is a tough call, and whichever way you choose, u might always wonder about the other. all SB and I r saying is that there is another way, where u dont have to choose:D its an indulgence, yeah, but an option nevertheless. in a way its a lazy and costly way out of indecision, and i do condemn it in the harshest terms possible:P but if u can...and u wanna...go for it:))
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skeikhbaron

Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 50
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:20 AM
Busingye i have your back on this one :-)

No seriously, ED and flygirl make some valid points. If you want to go into the world of academia you should definitely do a PhD instead of another masters. It will definitely be more beneficial. You could do other degrees like in economics or a MBA but that depends on you knowing what areas of law you want to do and go into.

But in saying that will doing the LLM and the BCL harm your legal career. Will having oxford and harvard on your CV not give you an advantage? All i'm saying is that there are different courses for different horses. I already have a masters but i don't what to do a PhD because i can't see myself studying on one particular area for 3/4 years. In addition, I want to practice rather than enter the world of academia. Will doing the second masters help my career? I hope so because it will be from Cambridge. People mention that it will be waste of another year and in that time you could be working and earning money. But I don't see it like that. I'm sure you will recoup that money in no time, spending what 40k-50k may now seem a lot but that will be pittance to what you can potential earn in 10 years time. Most importantly, who knows how long your career will last. You may outlive ED, flygirl, myself and busingye and thus have a longer career etc etc, who knows what will happen in the future....

But thats me, ED and flygirl have different aspirations, some people enter the legal profession after having doing something else. Question is do you want to do it, do you have the resources to do it? If yes then go for it. Just to give you an example below is a link to a profile of a partner at a leading american law firm. If you check out the profile, he has 2 masters, one from Cambridge and one from Georgetown and he doesn't seem to be doing badly for himself! Also note he did his original undergraduate law degree from cambridge and so some may argue that he didn't even need to do a masters let alone two but he nonetheless did! (phew!!!!!!)

www.sidley.com/lawyers/bio.asp?ID=P342281521
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fg

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 329
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Fri Apr 06, 2007 03:41 AM
Ummm...I can't really be bothered with discussion anymore since I think all points have been made.
That being said, the point about the partner is misleading. For every one partner in a firm you can find with two Masters you can finding 100 more at least with only one Masters and even more with none at all. So that example dispproves your point rather than makes it.
In addition, the Cambridge Masters in Laws is an LLM not an M.A. so it would seem his second Masters wasn't in law which supports ED's early point about diversity.
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wishful thinking

Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 17
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Fri Apr 06, 2007 09:42 AM
Busingye :

spot on dude. ....

The temptation to do both, if you can manage the finances, is irresistible.

Where are you going ?

I'm hoping to be headed to Oxford - the cobbled streets, Raz, Raz, Raz & more Raz !
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Busingye
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 140
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:03 AM
Heh..Verily, verily i say unto you...around this time in September, i will be treading upon the autumn leaves in Boston:)
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jarndyce

Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 21
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:04 AM
Flygirl's right - if you do a cambridge BA they give you an MA a year after you graduate, in a sort of honorary fashion, without actually having to do the study. So I suspect that partner hasn't really got two MAs/LLMs.
I don't really see the point about having to choose between another LLM/BCL and Phd. There are other graduate degrees i think - Mst or Mphil etc. These seem the obvious thing to do if you don't want to go on to a phd yet or ever, but like the idea of more grad law study. They're only a year still i think, but at least a little different to your last, and actually doing a bit of research. Also something less exam focused.
At the same time, I agree there can be no harm in another LLM, if you've got the money and time to play with.
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fg

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 329
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Fri Apr 06, 2007 03:02 PM
Heh, Raz as a draw card?! He also teaches at Columbia for one semester a year and he is a lovely man but a terrible teacher. I love his writing but would just read his books and steer clear of his classes. I have heard he is a good research supervisor though.
You know he retired recently though, right? I don't think he teaches at Oxford any more but perhaps the BCL students can correct me on this.
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fg

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 329
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Fri Apr 06, 2007 06:54 PM
Wishful Thinking - I notice from another post that you are deciding between Oxford and Columbia. If Raz is who you want to study with then I recommend CLS since he still teaches there for half a year due to no compulsory retirement like in the UK.

[Edited 06 Apr 2007 by fg]
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wishful thinking

Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 17
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Mon Apr 09, 2007 07:15 PM
hmmm .........i intend to get back to practise ... and in India. . . the brand oxford opens doors !!!
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dreams

Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 4
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:06 PM
I am in a similar position: I have offers from Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge (where I currently study). I know for a fact that I definitely want to do the Harvard LLM next year because I have never been to America and would love the experience. I am from Malaysia and therefore the UK has been a great three years for me but I'd like to experience an alternative. Should I decide to do the Oxford BCL after my Harvard LLM, does anyone know whether Oxford is ok with deferring entry for a year after they have already offered it to me for the coming academic year?
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fg

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 329
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:27 PM
As to whether you should do the BCL after your Harvard LLM I think we have comprehensively touched on all the issues in this post.
As for a deferral, I am not sure whether Oxford does that. When I was accepted into the BCL programme I inquired about that and Endicott told me that I should not consider the BCL after my LLM and instead move on to a research programme. I am not sure if that answers your question but it does indicate the general attitude of the faculty towards having both degrees and perhaps that would influence whether they would allow a deferral in your case.

[Edited 10 Apr 2007 by fg]
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londonHK

Joined: 06 Jun 2007
Posts: 3
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Thu Jun 07, 2007 05:15 AM
I actually have seen a number of Oxford BCL/Harvard LLMs just from googling, although, as already said, it is not a conventional path.

For those choosing this path, did you apply to both and defer one? Or did you apply to the second one while you were doing your first?

Is there rationale for doing the BCL before the LLM, or vice versa, or does the order not matter?

Oh, and how about taking a few years in between them to practice...or should they be done one after the other? Sorry for all the questions, but this thread definitely got me thinking about this route. Thanks!
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oxonian

Joined: 07 Jun 2007
Posts: 6
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Fri Jun 08, 2007 03:09 PM
Well, if you can only do one (and not both), I believe there is one other significant factor which has yet been considered by this thread.

The general concensus is that the BCL is far more rigorous than the Harv LLM. I am not entirely sure whether the LLM degree is 'classed' but the BCL degree definitely is. You either get a Distinction (otherwise known as a first), a Pass or (God forbid), you fail the course. On the average, 1 in 3 BCL students achieve the distinction. If you are keen to know, 1 in 5 MJur students achieve the same.

I can assure you that achieving the distinction requires a lot of hard work and discipline. I speak from personal experience. But it appears that you guys are all bright sparks, and so, maybe it will be a walk in the park for you.

To my mind, the answer to this dilemma turns on whether you examine it from the 'before' or the 'after'.

'Before' - The fear is that if you do go for the BCL, you do not obtain the distinction, in which case, you are better off doing the LLM which (I believe) is not 'classed'. Personally, if I know for a fact that I will only get a BCL pass, I would take the LLM over the BCL any time.

'After' - Operating on the assumption that you would achieve the distinction if you do go for the BCL (which I cannot overemphasize requires a phenomenal amount of work (again, on my part at least - you guys may be way smarter) and obviously, luck), then my view is that having the BCL is better than the LLM as you would be viewed as having undergone 'true academic rigour and succeeded'.

[Edited 08 Jun 2007 by oxonian]
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fg

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 329
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Fri Jun 08, 2007 06:36 PM
Our views on having both are set out exhaustively above so I won't go into them again.

For my part I think it comes down to where you want to study and what sort of law you want to study. I had the choice between the US and the UK for my Masters and chose the US because I was more interested in the US's approach to legal philosophy and constitutional law at the time. That being said, I didn't find the program particularly rigorous in that I was just lumped in with the other JDs (many of whom were first years) and it seemed like people could talk about what ever they wanted and call it law. That could be quite fun because we were assigned many non-law books to read as part of our courses on human rights, law and culture etc. This is not to say the LLM was easy - I worked extremely hard due to the amount of credits you need in order to graduate and the reading they assign - but intellectually I found it to be a bit too easy.
I also chose to do the US LLM because I wanted to live in New York over Oxford (and Boston for that matter) and considered working in the US subsequent to my LLM.
That being said, I am now moving to Oxford to do my DPhil because the supervision there (I hear) is much better than at the top US universities (ie: they take the DPhil seriously) and there is more researching going on at Oxford in what I want to do.
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equity's darling

Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 268
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Fri Jun 08, 2007 07:02 PM
I agree. The main priority and essential deciding factor for those fortunate enough to be accpeted to both masters courses has got to be the question of where you want to practice (in this I would subsume the question of what you want to practice, meaning both the subject area/discipline and the forum--i.e.e academia or firm/business).
For academia, I'd do the BCL; for practice/business, I'd select based on where I want to work, and, to a lesser degree, the area I want to practice in, having regard to the repute of each faculty in that area.

[Edited 08 Jun 2007 by equity's darling]
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oxonian

Joined: 07 Jun 2007
Posts: 6
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Sat Jun 09, 2007 05:39 PM
Point taken. Other things constant, my decision on which course to accept would also be based on ED's considerations. However, if on an ex poste facto examination, I know for a fact I won't do well for the BCL, I will go for the Harv LLM.
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fg

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 329
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Sun Jun 10, 2007 03:51 PM
Yeah but the very fact that you would do better in the Harvard LLM is the reason why it is a lesser respected degree academically. If you just want the name and the chance to live in the US and learn US law then go to Harvard. If you actually want to be challenged more and learn new intellectual skills then do the BCL.
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equity's darling

Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 268
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Sun Jun 10, 2007 09:28 PM
is it a fact that the harv llm isn't graded/classed? if not, then the above discussion might be somewhat misplaced.
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fg

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 329
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:59 PM
It is graded but you don't get awarded a first, second, etc degree overall like at Oxford so it is less obvious from your CV how well you did. I am not sure the fact that the BCL degree is graded makes much difference. The individual courses/papers at Harvard are still graded and you'd still have to show your transcript at an interview. Personally, I think it choosing Harvard because it is "easier" than Oxford or whatever is a little misguided. Choose somewhere because it offers one the best possible educational experience.
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equity's darling

Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 268
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Mon Jun 11, 2007 03:49 AM
even if we allow that in selecting a school one takes into account the relative difficulty of the programme and therefore the anticipated ease with which one may obtain top grades, I think that, as flygirl points out, those results will be appreciated irrespective of whether or not the entire degree is classed. any future employer will consider the grades in each course; A's and firts look terrific, but bpluses and 2:1's are probably sufficent, at least from schools of this calabre.

[Edited 11 Jun 2007 by equity's darling]
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oxonian

Joined: 07 Jun 2007
Posts: 6
Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL
Tue Jun 12, 2007 02:21 PM
I agree with the point that, in principle, the choice of which degree to go for should not turn on the relative ease or difficulty of the programme although in practice, I believe this factor would usually not go unconsidered. In reality, this is one of the factors (together with others like costs, geography, likelihood of an exciting social life, family proximity etc.) which gets considered, if only at a subconscious level, in totality with everything else.

On the point that B+s and good 2:1s are probably sufficient, I would beg to differ. Anecdotal evidence suggests that MC employers are 'very eager' to woo the BCL firsts, while expressing 'an optimistic willingness' to consider regular BCLers. I have also been candidly informed during interviews that, all things equal, a first is preferred (duh...). With that being said, I know of regular BCLers who have received offers in priority to BCL firsts, which clearly goes to show that there are other things employers look for.

[Edited 12 Jun 2007 by oxonian]
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