http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845 en How does the LLM allow you to qualify in AUS - LLM GUIDE Discussion Board Tue, 28 Aug 2007 02:06:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#34845 not sure if anyone can help but ill give it a shot. im Irish and i just finished my LLb undergrad in Dublin. i was seriously considering the international LLM in La Trobe with a view of possibly trying to practice in Aus afterward.. i've been trying to figure out what one needs to qualify as a Lawyer in Aus if you are an International student ?? I only seem to go around in circles as to what qualifications are needed... do you have to be a qualified lawyer in your own country first or can you train in Aus ??? and How does one go about it?? Does it take long and are oversees LLB excepted by Victoria state ?? i would really, really love to know what i need and i would be greatful for and advice anyone might have??? Cheers, Sat, 15 Sep 2007 08:11:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35269 Hi Rob, I am not sure if you have got a reply to your query yet but i have tried to help you out. For foreign practitioners, you will have to get your LLB assessed by the relevant State authorities. For some States the Universities have authority to assess it while the others are done by the Legal Practitioners Board. Upon assessment, they will tell you what requirements you will need to complete in order to fulfill the 'academic' requirements for admission in Australia. Thereafter, you will also have to satisfy a 'practical' component. This can either be completed 1 year with a Law Firm (Clerkship) or if you are unsuccessful you can pay and complete it over 6 months at Monash University in Victoria (or other providers). If you have some work experience or done some practical legal training in Dublin, again this can be assessed on a case-by-case basis by the relevant authorities. They will then tell you what 'practical' requirements you need to complete in order to be eligible for practise in Victoria. Once admitted in Victoria, you will be able to practise throughout Australia. As for the LLM with La Trobe, I am not too familiar with that aspect. As far as I have heard, the University allows you to complete some courses which you require to satisfy 'academic' requirements for admission into australia within your LLM. This will be dependant on the University's LLM Course Rules and you will have to check it out with the University. My advice would be to check out how many courses you require for admission prior to deciding your LLM. Some Universities like Monash University allows you to gain a LLM by completing only 4 courses if you do the 'Practical' component with them. Hope this helps! Feel free to drop me a message if you need more clarifications. Best Regards Greg Thu, 27 Sep 2007 23:41:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35564 Hi, I have a UK LLB and an LLM in International Human Rights Law from the UK. I am hoping to work in law in Australia - do you have any advice for me? Thank you! :-) Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:45:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35567 Hi Stargirlred, I have tried to include some general information that will be useful to you. First, you have to decide which state you want to work in. Although once you are admitted in one State (e.g. Melbourne or Queensland) you are able to practise throughout Australia, identifying the State will help you narrow down the University choices available to you. Second, after deciding the State, you will then have to identify the University you want to attend. I know that some States have a single body assessing overseas qualification while some do not. For example, if you want to study in Melbourne, the Law Institute will be the assessing authority (i am unsure on this aspect). If you want to study in Queensland, then individual Universities are authorised to assess the courses you are required to take. The outcome might variate a little from each University to each University - I have heard cases whereby students from UK are required to complete different amount of subjects. Also, at the same time, you might want to look into whether you want to undertake graduate classes with Juris Doctor students or do not mind undertaking undergraduate classes with Bachelor of Laws students. You can either undertake your courses on a non-award basis (i.e. you won't get any qualifications) or you will have to look for a LLM course which allows you to select the relevant courses which you require for admission (i think the La Trobe LLM allows you to do so). I suspect that you will not be required to complete many subjects so perhaps you can do the subjects you require under the LLM and then seek for credit for the remainder based on your LLM in International Human RIghts - this will be dependant on the University's credit rules (You must note that some Universities here do not give credit for completed awards as they say that it is 'double tipping' but most award some credit). As far as I am aware, your option is pretty much limited to La Trobe if you want an award out of your 'conversion' studies. Alternatively, you can consider completing a JD in Australia with University of Melbourne or Monash University but that would require around 2 years (if maximum credit is given for this 3 year program). Hope this helps! Let me know if you need further information. Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:42:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35591 Thank you for your reply! Do you have any idea about the cost and duration of taking the additional courses? Also, do you know how many courses UK LLB graduates are normally required to take? I am only aware of Federal Constitutional Law as a definate! Thank you :-) Fri, 28 Sep 2007 23:43:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35598 Hey, I can only give you my perspective from my personal experience so it might be wrong. I am in Queensland and the Universities are the assessing authorities. The courses required for UK students that I have met varied. You are right that the most definite would be Federal Constitutional Law. However, some have been asked to complete Administrative Law and some have been asked to complete Company Law. These are basically the more 'popular' courses that are completed by UK students. In terms of cost, they are around 2000 each for international students. Depending on availability, you can finish up in 6 months? Each course is offered only once a year so you might being in the situation where Constitutional Law is offered in first half of the year and Administrative Law being offered in the second half of the year - thus taking you 1 year. However, there is nothing stopping you from resolving this issue by doing subjects on a non-award basis at two different universities at the same time! :) Let me know if you need anything else and I will try to help. Regards Greg Sat, 29 Sep 2007 12:17:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35606 When you say 2000 - do you mean sterling or Aus dollars? Queensland would be my choice, because my husband is a marine biologist with tropical marine biology as his specialism, so he would like to be based in Queensland. Do you know if John Cooks offer the courses I would need? Also, are there any sponsorship options? And finally, obviously you can get a student visa to take the courses, but do you know how this increases your chances of getting another visa to continue work after the course- from what I understand you need 2 years Aus study to achieve a visa without work experience - it would be a shame to do the course and then not be able to stay in Aus to look for work! Are there any options other than Employer Sponsored Temp Visa once the courses have been taken, do you know? Sorry to pester you with queries!! :-) Sun, 30 Sep 2007 09:26:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35625 Hi there, In relation to the studies at James Cook University this is the website you will have to look at --> http://www.jcu.edu.au/law/degrees/index.htm Basically, cost fees are around $2000 AUD for International Students (per subject). However, do note that International Students required to do a Full-Time Load. For example, a classmate of mine only requires Constitutional Law but she has to complete 2 superfluous subjects (basically any course) to enable her enrolment to be Full-Time - this is a Government Policy. As such, you might want to get your qualifications assessed by Queensland authorities (this is done by Universities in Queensland) and plan your enrolment. See if JCU has all the subjects you require in 1 semester - if you require 2 subjects and they are delivered across two different semesters, you will have to take 4 superfluous courses to make your enrolment full time for the whole year. Don't forget that you will also have to check with the Queensland Law Society to see what 'practical' requirements you have to fulfill before you can be admitted as a lawyer. The studies at JCU merely fulfills the 'Academic' requirements. In relation to the issue on Visas, you are right that two years work experience or two years study in Australia is the only way to gain a permenant visa. I have heard of employers applying for a work visa on behalf but this is somewhat rare and unfrequent - the job market for lawyers in Australia is a little tight at the moment.. Again, I try my best to help if you have further queries. :) Regards Greg Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:47:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35726 Hi, Me again! I'm persuing information on another option... Is it possible to do the conversion courses over 2 years - in order to meet the 2 year study rule? I understand this would mean taking additional subjects to make the study 'full-time'. Also, you said that courses are 2000 Aus dollars (this is definately the amount for International students, not home students?), so to be full time do you take 3 courses in total - to make the full year, or do you need 6 courses (and thus 12,000 Aus dollars) to make it full-time for a year? I understand the JD is a full time 2 year course, though from what I've read it is aimed at non-law students wanting to convert, rather than those with a legal background? Finally, if coversion is completed in a year and then one moves on to the practical side, does the practical year count as being a student for the 2 year study rule? Basically, I'm wondering what it would involve to convert my qualification and meet the 2 year rule, alongside how much such an endeavor would cost! (I would most likely be hoping to undertake this in Queensland). Thank you for all your help! Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:39:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35729 Hey there, I have tried to answer your questions - hope it is useful. I remembered previously you mentioned that you are interested to study at JCU so my advice will be made on this assumption. Firstly, i think that the option of completing a JD will be out because JCU does not offer a JD - it is only offered in selected universities in Australia (mostly at the top 10 ones). Also, in order to qualify for the '2 year rule' studies must be done in an AWARD program so Non-Award studies is out. A quick surf through the JCU website indicate that they have two programs available that allow LAW Subjects to be studied: 1. LLB 2. GradDipLegalStudies. The prices for 2008 are as follows: LLB (Graduate): 13, 680AUD per year GradDipLegStudies: 16,800AUD per year For option 1, the LLB (Graduate) is primarily for graduates with a non-law degree and is 3 years. You will have to check with them if they are willing to accept you as you are a not a non-law graduate per se. If they are happy to accept you then I think there will be no issues getting 1 - 1.5 years of credit based on your UK LLB. Thereafter, you will have to complete 2 years worth of compulsory + electives. You will need to check with Australia Immigration if 3 subjects x 4 Semester satisfies the 2 year requirement or if they require 4 subjects x 4 Semesters. By having this information, you will then be able to apply for the right amount of prior learning credit. The law has recently changed to be really strict about this so I can't advise further on this aspect. Of course, the safest option would be to do 4 subjects x 4 semester but it has implications on costs. It is likely that they will exempt you from basic subjects like Contract Law, Tort etc so you will have to take electives in-lieu. Alternatively, it would be the Graduate Diploma in Legal Studies which is 1 year. Again, you will have to check if its fine to do 3 subjects x 2 semesters or would you have to do 4 subjects x 2 semesters. Also, as it is primarily for non-law graduates, you have to check if you are allowed entry into this program. As the course is only 1 year, you can look at completing another masters which is 1 year - Australia allows a student to use multiple qualifications to meet the 2 year requirement. You might want to look at the JCU MBA program which is 1.5 years - check with them to see if they will be happy to give you 0.5 years of credit based on your UK LLM. Alternatively, there are other Masters on offer at JCU which might interest you. With that said, i think you will be able to arrive at your best option by getting your LLB assessed by an Australian University. I am unsure if JCU has the authority to assess it but UQ does (http://www.law.uq.edu.au/evaluation-of-overseas-qualifications) - this can then be used for your JCU studies. Also, you will need to check with the Law Society of Queensland as to what 'practical' requirements do you have to fulfill in order to be admitted - most UK students dont need any additional practical component. However, if you do need a practical course, you will have to complete something elsewhere because JCU does not offer one. It is also only 0.5 years of study but most practical training providers give students the option of extending their studies by another 0.5 years to do make it 1 year, awarding an LLM to students who complete 4 additional subjects during the period. Also, check with Immigration if the 2 year requirement can be satisfied by 3 subjects x 4 semesters as it would determine your credit application. Let me know if you need anything else! Best Regards Greg Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:04:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35736 Thanks once again for your detailed response- much appreciated. I have looked at the immigration website and it would appear full-time enrollment is required - so 4 courses per term, for the study to meet the criteria - also if it needs to be for an award then the LLB seems the best option - like you said, apply for 1 year credit for my existing LLB and then take 2 years to complete the necessary subjects plus some extras. I have looked at JCU and QU (I don't really mind which university I apply for, so long as it is costal - for my husband) and JCU is 13,680 but QU is 20,000 dollars (approx), with courses coming in around 2600 dollars each! Do prices generally fluctuate between universities? Is the Aus system very hierarchical, (like the US system) or does it not matter too much where I complete my qualification? Obviously I wouldn't want to spend 2 years getting a qualification that was looked down on in the legal profression (especially when my UK qualification are from a well regarded Uni), however money is an issue and 7000 Aus dollars difference between courses is a huge amount! I shall get my qualifications assessed I think with a view to starting a course in February 2008 - no time like the present! I did like your idea about doing a masters though, for an additional year - do you think it would be possible to get 2 years credit for my UK LLB, or would that just be pushing it :D Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:07:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35737 I just read that the Law Department at JCU is qualified as an assessor of overseas qualifications - so that's good :-) Thu, 04 Oct 2007 00:46:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35754 Financing Query On the application form for a student visa it says you have to state you have enough money. My husband intends to work his full-enititlement on hours and I shall work too in order to fund our stay in Aus, which I assume is allowed since they let you work. They do not ask for documentation to prove anything - is it ok to sign the declaration - what do people normally do? Thanks! :-) Thu, 04 Oct 2007 01:06:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35755 Hi There :) Again, these are my responses: Financing Query - As far as I am aware, UK is under Category 1 Assessment Level for Visas and so you do not have to attach any documentary evidence of financial capability - you merely have to sign a declaration on your Visa Application. However, do note that there is a condition attached to your student visa that you can only work for 20 hours per week during Semesters (and unlimited during holidays). Assessment of Qualifications - Although you can get your qualifications assessed at any university in Queensland, it is best you get it assessed at the one you seek to attend so they will know your situation best. However, there is a possibility that assessment results might differ slightly from university to university but i guess this is not important in your circumstances because you are going to do 2 years worth of subjects anyway! Law School Programs - there are two versions of the JCU LLB. One would be a 4 year for high school graduates and the other is a 3 year for non-law graduates. If you were to apply for the latter, you only require 1 year of credits based on your UK LLB and i am quite confident you will get it. As a general rule Australian Universities can give credit up to 50% of the original course duration (i.e. 4 year degrees can be credited with 2 years of credit (max); 3 year degrees can be credited with 1.5 years of credit (max)) . The top 3 universities for Law in Queensland are University of Queensland, Queensland University of Technology and Griffith University. Most law firms in Brisbane (the capital of Queensland) employ their staff from these three law schools. If, however, you are intended to work in rural areas , then i think a JCU degree will suffice (I am unsure as to the employment practises out of Brisbane). If you are seeking a job in a top tier law firm then having a degree from University of Queensland would of course secure you an interview. However, the choice of University might not matter in your circumstances because you already have a LLB and LLM from UK which distinguishes you from the crowd. I guess only you will have the answer to this question! If you are worried that a LLB at JCU would not be that prestigious but have constraints in terms of fees, why not consider doing the GradDipLegStudies and a Masters with JCU to get a higher qualification? Do keep in mind that most UK students merely complete 2 -4 subjects on a Non-Award basis to get qualified in Australia and do not really have much difficulty in getting a job (but these people have work experience). Hope this helps! :) Again, happy to help further. Best, Greg Sat, 06 Oct 2007 15:29:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35816 Anyone wanting to requalify/work in Australia shoudl also consider the immigartion/visa rules very carefully. Law is NOT a favoured profession by Immigration (i.e. there are lots of law grads in Australia, so you won't get any bonus points in the bizarre points system that Australia uses for visas. That said, it will be easier to migrate if you have a minimum number of years (three??) post-qualification work experience in your home country. Also, as in most countries, student visas are not given with the the view that the person will remain and work in the country afterwards. For more info (and before thinking about spending, have a look at http://www.immi.gov.au/immigration.htm Sun, 07 Oct 2007 00:03:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35823 Thanks once again Gregory - helpful as always :-) I do have concerns about not going to a top Aus uni - especially given that I do not think I'd have any problem getting into them with my UK grades. However, this said, money is an issue and the difference in fees is great between QU and JCU. Also, JCU is better situated for my husband's profession - so I think my decision is made for me in this respect! I will definately consider the option you mention though. I'm sure I'll bug you with more questions at some point - thank you for your patience! Charlie :-) Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:30:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35878 Hi! This might seem like an obvious question, but what does one do to become a solicitor/barrister in Australia after coverting UK LLB to Aus LLB? In the UK you have to apply for either the LPC (Law Practitioners Course - for Solicitors) or the BVC (Bar Vocational Course - for barristers) and complete a years study (at considerable expense). Then if you want to be a solicitor you must apply for a training contract with a firm and work your way up from there, to be a barrister you must apply for pupillage with a chamber and then hope and pray they take you on after that! It's a tricky old business! Is it similar in Australia (Queensland in particular)? Also, would studying for the Aus equivilent of an LPC/ BVC (if this is how it works) count as a years study - would you get a student visa for it? Finally, if you secure a training contract/ pupillage (or the equivilant) does this count as a full-time job for visa purposes (do you know?) Basically, I'm curious about what happens once the additional courses have been taken - how does one become a practicing lawyer? Thanks in advance for your help, Charlie :-) Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:55:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35882 Hi Charlie, Good to hear from you! :) Tried to help you out from my knowledge. 1. How to become a solicitor / barrister in Australia. The route to becoming a solicitor / barrister is different in Australia. Depending on your choice, this is what you will have to do. If you want to be a Barrister: Apart from getting your LLB assessed by JCU or UQ, you will have to enquire with Queensland Law Society as to what 'practical legal training' requirements you will have to satisfy in order to practise in Australia. At a bare minimum, I anticipate that you would be required to complete Trust Accounting and Professional Conduct (Ethics). This can be done either online or face-to-face depending on where you are situated. If you are in Brisbane, then Queensland University of Technology (www.qut.edu.au) and Griffith University (www.gu.edu.au) allow you to do it face-to-face. Alternatively, College of Law (www.collaw.edu.au) lets you do it online or you can do it with Australian National University (www.anu.edu.au) - those offered by Universities go under the name Graduate Diploma in Legal Practice (you can do individual subjects). Once you have fulfilled both requirements, you can apply to the Supreme Court for admission as a legal practitioner. If you want to become a Barrister, you have to undertake a 3-week Bar Practice Course at Queensland University of Technology. Thereafter, you have to undertake 1 year of pupillage under a Barrister. If you want to become a Solicitor: Option 1: You can complete a year of training with a law firm - frequently termed as Graduate Recruitment over here. I am pretty sure this will be counted towards full-time job for visa purposes but it would be difficult to get a law firm to apply for a work visa for you. These firms usually have 'in-house' legal training and they prefer graduate who need to complete all aspects of practical training. Option 2: You can embark on the practical legal training with a provider as I have outlined above in the part about becoming a Barrister (just ignore the part on Bar Practice Course). --- Also, to become a Barrister, I think you can eliminate the need to do the Practical Legal Training if you decide to do 1 year of training at a law firm and thereafter doing the Bar Practice Course + 1 year of pupillage. I am unsure as to whether pupillage counts towards full-time job for visa purposes. However, i think the route of undertaking a 1 year training through Graduate Recruitment does count. I hope this limited information I am able to provide is useful - I will only be gaining admission in early 2008 so I am not really familiar with it. Some aspects might not be accurate but the geist of the system should be somewhat illustrated. Regards Greg Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:45:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35883 Thanks Greg :-) It seems easier than in the UK - in the UK (I have heard) only 5% of law students actually become barristers! I may see if I can undertake the 'practical' element whilst I am doing my 2 years study - do you think this likely? Also - once I have undertaken the 2 years of study I can get a temporary graduate visa for 18 months - so that would allow me the time to undertake any training with a law firm (then they would not need to sponsor me) and thereafter I would meet the permanent visa criteria as I would be qualified at last - yey! I'll see what information I can find on the internet about becoming a lawyer in Queensland :-) Do you mean you are gaining admission to the Law Society or to Uni? Thanks for your help :-) Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:22:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35884 hi Greg- hope you can answer my queries- i have been accepted by la trobe uni for masters in law- i was just reading an earlier message which said that lawyers are not in high demand and that it might not fare well at point of immigration. My masters course runs for 2 years as i start with a graduate diploma which u correctly stated as having a duration of 1 year in itself. please let me know if there is a good chance of applying and gettting PR after the 2 years of masters at uni? i'm not too keen on practicing although i am a qualified attorney-at-law in my home country. Are there many avenues a postgraduate can take after a masters course in law in australia? And if so, will there be a good chance that i can stay on after my two year study programme and apply PR? thanks very much for your help! Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:35:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35893 Hi Charlie, I am going to gain admission into the Law Society early next year :) Finishing my JD this November! Your idea to get the temporary visa after 2 years of study is a good idea. One thing to bear in mind is that some PLT providers insist that you only have 1 or 2 outstanding 'compulsory subjects' (e.g. constitutional law etc) before they allow you to undertake practical training - that should not be a problem for you though. However, the Law Society MIGHT require you to take up some work experience - I am not sure on this aspect but it might be a possible requirement as you have not practised in UK. Over here, depending on your provider for the practical program, students have to undertake practical training have to undertake a minimum of 20 days to 80 days work experience (depending on your option) - I am unsure what will the Law Society's assessment be. Also, note that doing the practical program at a University would mean that most top tier law firms would NOT take you on for their 1 year Graduate Recruitment because you would be a qualified lawyer by then (and not a trainee). However, there would be a wide range of employment opportunities for you at mid tier and small law firms who do not provider in-house practical training and these firms usually hire qualified lawyers directly. Accordingly, your pay would also be higher since you are qualified rather than undertaking a training year. In relation to price and flexibility of the practical legal training, College of Law (www.collaw.edu.au) would be the cheapest but require you to undertake assessments face-to-face in Brisbane. However, the Australian National University's (Top 3 Uni in Australia - this is debatable but its definitely top 5) (www.law.anu.edu.au) provides a more flexible online program. Regards Greg Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:49:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35894 Hi Legallbrunette, I am sorry I can't really advise because I am not really familiar with La Trobe's courses - I am based in Queensland. As far as I am aware, if you meet the points test (www.immi.gov.au) for the Skilled Migration Visa, it is highly likely they will grant the visa to you. Thus, your best bet would be to do a self-assessment on the website to see if your Age, Qualifications, English Skills etc allow you to meet the minimum threshold to be assessed for the Visa. If it does not, you can look at applying for a Temporary Graduate Visa which allows people to seek for jobs and thereafter apply for a PR Visa. The other guy who wrote in this forum was somewhat right that the law market is a little tight in Australia. With that said, if you are not picky in finding a job then you should be fine - there are plenty of legal-related jobs on offer by the Government. There are also jobs at mid-tier and smaller law firms. The main bulk of competition is at the top tier firm so it would be difficult getting a job there. I have also heard that there are more job opportunities in Victoria (where La Trobe is) than in Queensland but I am not sure to what extent is this statement true. (I might be wrong on this) Your PR Visa application will be assessed based on your points test and not your occupation per se (however your occupation gives you points). Therefore, being a lawyer or an accountant makes no difference as both gives you the maximum of 60 points. The only requirement is that your nominated occupation must be relevant to your studies in Australia - which is the case for you. In relation to postgraduate studies, I think your LLM would be more valuable if intend to look for a job practising law. Of course, it would be highly desirable if you were to go into consulting etc - all depends on your intended occupation. Sorry if you don't find this reply really useful - can't really help you out as I do not know how you fare on the points test stipulated by the Australian Government. Let me know if I can help you further after you have done a self-assessment! Regards Greg Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:13:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35895 Congratulations on your entry to the Law Society - well done! Thanks again for all your help :-) As a side matter - my UK LLM is in International Human Rights law from the University of Essex (the No.1 institution for Human Rights) and I received a distinction. I understand that I may have to be flexible in my career choices if I want to work in Australia, that said I did specialise in Refugee Law and Indigenous Rights. Do you have any knowledge of the Human Rights scene in Queensland/ Australia - are there positions available in this field? Thanks again, Charlie :-) Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:21:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35896 Hey Charlie, Sorry can't help you out with that one - Unfortunately, I am clueless about the opportunities available for Human Rights Law over here. Regards Greg Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:31:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35898 Not to worry - thanks anyway :-) Do you know what areas of law are popular? It would be worth taking some 'safe-bet' courses whilst I'm completing my studies! :-) Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:41:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35899 I think the usual corporate/commercial would be fine - afterall this is where all the money is at! Perhaps a surf through the top tier websites would give you some perspective. Google the following firms when you are free (not in rank): Minter Ellison Allen Arthur Robinson Clayton Utz FreeHills Blake Dawson Waldron Also, I have heard that enrolment in Tax courses are always high but would depends if you like it - I have only taken basic Tax Law and have no intentions to undertake any advance subjects! :) Regards Greg Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:50:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35900 Thanks again! I guess it's about finding that balance between what you love and what will actually get you a half-decent job! ;-) Thu, 11 Oct 2007 05:46:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#35902 Thanks Greg! :-) no, that was very helpful actually... :-) thanks again! Mon, 25 Feb 2008 01:08:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#40977 Hello, Having been travelling in Australia, I have decided that I would one day like to live and work there. (Because its awsome - obvious!) I am in second year studying for an LLB Law degree at an English university. Stargirl, speaking from your own experience, do you have any advice that you could give me that could help me qualify to practice law as a solicitor in Australia in the most time saving route? It won't be long before i'll be applying for a place on the Legal Practice Course. Will doing the LPC help me or will I be just wasting a year? Sydney would be my chosen destination but i'm open to anywhere, Also, anyone else please feel free to advise... Tue, 26 Feb 2008 01:45:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#41057 Hi! I would suggest doing your LPC and then getting 1 years work experience as a lawyer - once you are a qualified UK lawyer with 1 years work experience then you are eligible for the Working migration visa - bingo - you legally live in Aus! For my part, we wanted to live in Aus asap and didn't want to hang in the UK whilst I got my LPC and did a years work, so I have enrolled at uni in Queensland. I have arranged with the uni to complete the Australian LLB in 2 years - getting credit for my existing LLB for the rest of the course. I have had my qualifications assessed and am taking all the courses needed to qualify in Aus, alongside other interesting ones to fill the 2 years. 2 Years full-time study in Aus, leading to a qualification is a visa criteria (instead of 1 years work experience). Afterwards you are eligible to have a Temp Graduate Visa' allowing you 18 months to get qualified (LPC equivilant in Queensland costs 4k sterling and can be done on-line and takes 6 months - could be done parrallel to 2 years study to save time...). After you are a qualified solicitor then you can get the proper residency visa. I am going to JCU in Townsville (also in Cairnes) because the law department is pretty good and they charge the cheapest fees in Aus. This is all for Queensland - but should be similar elsewhere. Also, once you are a qualified queensland lawyer, you can practice Australia wide! I hope that all helps! :-) Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:30:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#45721 Yes it does, thankyou stargirl. Because it is necessary to complete a 2 year training contract after the LPC in order to fully qualify as a solicitor, when you suggested that I do my LPC and get 1 years work experience as a lawyer - Does this mean doing the LPC, then completing the necessary two year training contract with a law firm to qualify, to then go on to get 1 years work experience as a fully qualified solicitor? (which would take 4 years) or Do you mean I could do the LPC and then get the years work experience from working in a law firm as a trainee solicitor, from a training contract? (which would take less) Also, what do you know about the LLM Law for international law students at La Trobe uni? and would you recommend it? I'm not hugely bothered about differences in fees betweeen aus universities, I would be more concerned with finding the right one for my situation. Any further help or advice would again be greatly appreciated, Regards, Rob Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:05:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#45741 Rob, Without following through all the posts, i think i might be able to help. Am i right to understand what is the fastest way to gain admission into Australia as a legal practitioner after your have completed your LLB? If that is your question, you shld look into completing 'conversion' courses in Austraila immediately after graduating from your LLB. In particular, UK students are usually only required to complete Australian Constitutional Law and Australian Administrative Law (some students have to complete Company Law but this is rare). By completing these 2 courses, you will meet the academic requirement for admission to practice. Thereafter, you can complete a Graduate Diploma in Legal Practice to meet the 'practical requirements' for practice. This would take 6 mths and some providers like the Australian National University would allow you to commence it from UK right this moment (online mode). This would also contribute towards 50% of a LLM degree from them. Let me know if you would like more information on this :) Cheers Greg Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:26:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#45743 Thanks Greg that was very helpful, and I would certainly like more information on that, You are right in your understanding, i am particularly concerned as to what is the fastest way to gain admission into Australia as a legal practitioner after I have completed my LLB, this is because i am already 23 and i'm eager to make a career for myself. How do these 'conversion' courses differ from a 2 year LLM (eg: la trobe) ? also since I will be starting my final year in Septmber, and will actually have compled my LLB 1 year from now, when should I be applying for these 'conversion' courses? So I can embark on one ASAP Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:47:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#45746 Hi Rob, These 'conversion' courses are basically subjects offered within a standard Australian LLB/JD degree. As you will already have a UK LLB degree, you will just sign up for these courses on a non-award basis - i.e. you undertake Australian Constitutional Law and Australian Administrative Law with LLB/JD students but just complete these subjects without the need to complete the remaining 20ish subjects. Of course, it will not lead you to any award but will enable you to satisfy the ACADEMIC REQUIREMENT for practise. These courses cannot be completed online while you are in UK so you will be on a student visa. In order for a student visa to be granted, you will have to be enrolled in 3 courses per semester so you might have to look into taking up an elective to fulfill your visa requirements (that was what most of my UK classmates did). Also, if you are looking to practise in Sydney, it is best if you drop the LPAB an email to make a general enquiry as to whether they can give you an indication as to what subjects you are required to undertake - this sometimes differ for UK LLB graduates. You will also have to complete a PRACTICAL course to be admitted as a solicitor. The Australian National University (in Canberra) offers an online version of this course (www.law.anu.edu.au --> click on 'Legal Workshop'). Australian LLB students are usually permitted to complete this concurrently while completing their basic law degree in order to accelerate admission, however, I am unsure if this applies to overseas graduates as well. Regardless of when enrolment in this degree is open to you, you can complete 1 week of intensive courses on campus, then complete the remaining courses back at home in UK. The entire graduate diploma will take you around 4-5 months to complete - there is a 'legal practice experience' (australian version of 'training contract) component which ranges from 1 - 4 months and you can complete it in a UK firm if you so please. The completion of this diploma then entitles you to articulate into a LLM by just completing 4 (rather than 8) courses. In my opinion, this should be the fastest way for you to gain admission into Australia and to gain a LLM qualification at the same time. The Australian National University is also one of the leading universities in Australia so the reputation is top-notch compared to the La Trobe 2 year LLM. My limited understanding about the La Trobe LLM is that it is basically the same as 'conversion' courses in the sense that they allow you to count courses you complete with their LLB students into the degree - i.e. you attend the subejcts you require with the LLB students but they allow you to count towards their LLM degree. Regardless, Australian National University is ranked top 3 in Australia (sometimes equal first) while La Trobe is above or around rank 10. Please, however, double-check with the relevant stakeholders as I might be wrong on some areas. :) Cheers Greg Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:49:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#45753 Thanks Greg, So am I right in the understanding that I would need to: 1. Complete the relevant academic requirements of australian undergrad law (Australian con & admin, and advised electives) to satisfy a legitimate 'conversion'. 2. Enrole onto and complete a 'Practical' graduate diploma (is this also called a practice management course?). 3. Complete the Australian version of the training contract with work within a law firm. Supposing that overseas students could not run stages simultaneously and that I did indeed have to complete each stage after another, how long would a) each stage take? and b) everything on the whole take? Also how would completion of these stages enable me to articulate an LLM? Because whilst qualifying as soon as possible is of particular interest to me, actually getting recognised award for my studyies is also of some interest. Thanks for your patience Greg, i appreciate your help, Rob Thu, 17 Apr 2008 01:42:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#45784 Hi Rob, I have provided my reply in accordance to the 3 pointers you have listed. 1. You are right, the academic requirements you are required are usually termed 'conversion' courses by people but I do not think the bodies use that term officially. In order to determine the courses you have to undertake, you will have to send in your enquiries to the LPAB directly as I am unable to advise on that. Completing the courses they have advised will satisfy the academic requirements - the need for an elective or two is merely to fulfill your visa requirements to be studying for at least 3 courses a semester. Of course, if you are completing the remaining of your LLM requirements, then there will be no need to take electives which do not count towards any award. 2 The practical requirements would require you to either complete a 0.5 years Graduate Diploma in Legal Practice with a University OR embark on a 1-year clerkship with a top/middle tier law firm which offers this facility. The competition for the latter is extremely competitive and the chances of one getting it is unclear. It is term 'Practical Legal Training' course in Australia. 3. The Australian version of the 'training contract' is a requirement within the Graduate Diploma in Legal PRactice - i.e. you cannot graduate without completing it. Some providers have a fixed duration of 4 months whilst the Australian National University have a requirement ranging from 1 - 4 months. If you so decide to complete a shorter placement, then you will just have to add a few coursework subjects in-lieu. As far as I am aware, this is the only provider which is more generous in allowing students to complete international placements - i.e. you can complete your duration with a UK law firm. Also, as mentioned in my earlier post, this program is online and usually taken concurrently by students who are completing their Australian LLB/JD degree. I am not sure what are the requirements in order for a UK student to undertake it concurrently but I suspect they might want you to have completed your 'Academic' requirements prior to commencing it but they might allow you to take selectd courses right now, you will have to enquire. Also, completion of the Graduate Diploma in Legal Practice allows you to continue with a LLM from Australian National University. Once you have completed the diploma, you will be deemed to have completed 50% of their LLM so you will only have to complete 4 courses to be awarded with a LLM. It would be essential that the Legal Practice Diploma and LLM be completed at the same university because this arrangement is provided internally - note that there are only limited universities with this articulation arrangement as well. Not forgetting, you should also look into how you can gain permanent residency to Australia because most law firms are only keen to hire people who have rights to work in Australia. At the moment, the requirement would be 2-year study in Australia but the fulfillment of this requirement would seem to run in direct contrary of your intentions to be admitted into practise as soon as possible! Cheers G Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:47:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#45803 Wow - so much has been discussed! Though i'd put in my thoughts after a bit of research regarding getting the perm res visa... 1) Check out this link for QLD - http://www.qls.com.au/content/lwp/wcm/connect/QLS/Law+in+Qld/How+to+Become+a+solicitor/Required+Study+%26+Training It would appear that all that is needed to meet the visa criteria (for the SOL listed job of Legal Practitioner - solicitor - 60 points) is the degree (and any additional courses) and the practical legal course. It does not mention any 'training contract' requirements for registration as a solicitor. The sticking point for a UK graduate will be meeting the other visa criteria - ie - 2 years study in Aus (resulting in a qualification - not just random study!) or 1 years work experience in chosen profession. I have taken the '2 years study in Aus' route as I had to study to 'convert' anyway - I've just added more electives and got my uni to agree to give me credit for my UK degree so I will get a full Aus LLB when i'm done. Your best bet it to look at the immigration website www.immi.gov.au - everything is there - just need to look. The visa options for those who have studied in Aus are broader and you get extra points for the study if you meet certain criteria. Given that the PLT can be undertaken at the same time as study, you could be ready to practice, with a residency visa in 2 years - to the best of my knowedge there is no criteria to have worked in the profession or done a training contract beyond the actual PLT. Please let me know if this is wrong! hope that helps! One final point - I was horrified when I had my full LB hons 2:1 degree assessed my James Cook - they determined I had to do 9 additional subjects - don't be fooled into thinking you will only have to do admin & constitutional law!! I have to do - admin, constitutional, company law, land law 1 & 2, commercial law, evidence, legal ethics and Civil proceedure!!! (Perhaps this is a Queensland thing? Does it seem wrong to anyone out there?) Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:15:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#45804 Hi Stargirl, there is no training contract requirement for admission into Australia. in relation to your assessment, i have heard that different universities in QLD usually provide different assessment outcomes. Applicants are able to rely upon the best assessment they obtain - i.e. you can get it assessed by UQ and then study for those equivalent subjects at JCU or QUT. Most of my UK classmates in law school did that :) Cheers G Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:42:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#45813 Excellent - so it takes a bit less time to be a 'real lawyer' :D Also very good for visa nonsense. I thought it was a bit mad. I still want to do 2 years for my visa, but i'd like to do more electives, rather than repeating subjects all the time! (like Land Law - that I'm doing now, which is practically the same!) If i get my qualifications assessed by UQ it'll cost an extra $200 though :-s hmm... Fri, 16 May 2008 08:01:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#47365 Hello Gregory! I notice that you are doing law in Qld. As I am an international student currently doing LLB in Qld, I have some questions about practising law in Australia/Brisbane after I graduate. 1. I hope I can get a PR after I graduate. Do you think I should do the PLT or the Trainee program after I graduate? For PLT, which institutions do you recommend? (I can do it in other states too!) 2. I am not sure about the PR application. Is it true that I can only apply the PR after completing the PLT course and be admitted as a solicitor or I can apply it as soon as I get my LLB? Do you have any tips about the PR application? Thank you very much^^ Fri, 16 May 2008 10:52:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/34845/last#47368 Hi Stephen? I have tried to help you out with your questions. My opinion is as follows: 1. I hope I can get a PR after I graduate. Do you think I should do the PLT or the Trainee program after I graduate? For PLT, which institutions do you recommend? (I can do it in other states too!) Your choice in PLT or Trainee program would depend on your career goals. If your goal would be to become a corporate lawyer in a commercial law firm then you should strive to embark on a trainee program with a law firm. On the other hand, if your career interest is to be with the government - i.e. perhaps the ATO, then it would be good to complete the PLT and get on with your plan. In essence, i think basically people embark on a traineeship to facilitate gaining employment with the firm they are at. With that said, most firms conducting traineeships are the mid/top tier firms which are extremely competitive. They usually take on people who have undertook a clerkship with them over the summer/winter vacations so you should have a look at applying for them. Given the competitive nature of these traineeships, you might have to set a contingency plan to undertake a PLT if you don't get one. Personally, i think that completing a PLT program would preclude you from gaining employment in a mid/top tier firm which has their own traineeship program (for obvious reasons because they would hire their own trainees rather than take a PLT person they have had no experience with). Accordingly, you will have to stick in a small/mid tier law firm after your PLT and switch to a top-tier firm after you have 2-3 yrs of experience under your belt. In brief, your choice between traineeship and PLT would depend on a combination of factors. They are mainly: your career objectives and your grades. However, be warned that firms rarely take in international students because there are an abundance of local law students out there. In addition, they are looking at long-term and are slightly cautious when recruiting people without PR because the likelihood that they will be staying for a few years is lower than that of a loca. 2. I am not sure about the PR application. Is it true that I can only apply the PR after completing the PLT course and be admitted as a solicitor or I can apply it as soon as I get my LLB? Do you have any tips about the PR application? Yes, this is another difficulty for international law students. As far as I am aware (i might be wrong), you can only nominate the occupation of 'solicitor' after you have gained admission into a State. Therefore, without your PLT/traineeship, you would not be entitled to elect this qualification. My advice would be to apply for a 'graduate visa' (unsure of specific term) after you graduate with your LLB as it would give you work rights - it is a relatively new visa. This should help you secure a placement, a job or something that you cannot achieve with your student visa. In terms of PLT, you will have to consider whether you would like to upgrade it to a masters subsequently. If you have intentions to do so, ANU, Monash and QUT would be the better ones to go for. If you are looking at cost savings, then College of Law would be the one to go for. Personally, I would recommend that you complete it with ANU as they permit you to complete it concurrently with your LLB. You will have to go on-campus for a 1week intensive and thereafter you can complete the remainder of your PLT in Queensland online. IF you are able to handle the workload, you might be able to graduate from both your LLB and PLT at the same time. However, the downside of this option would be that, unlike QUT, ANU is located in Canberra and cannot make arrangements on your behalf for a placement in Queensland (which could potentially lead to a full-time job). Let me know if I can help you further! Cheers Greg