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USAN'UK

Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Posts: 23
Graduate LLB Course
Sat Sep 08, 2007 04:01 PM
Hello all, I'm new to this site. I am an America student. I'm about to graduate with my US Bachelor's degree. I am looking into law s chools in the UK with the idea of eventually practicing law in the UK. I am looking at the University City College of London. My concern is that if I go to the UK take the two year course in the Gradaute Entry LLB, and then either the BVC or the LPC, that I won't be able to secure pupalige, or a sponsorship from a UK law firm. With the immigration requirements being as they are, I don't want to go over there only to come back to the States to have to go to more school just to take the Bar, say in D.C. I realize this site is concerning LLM programs. But I wasn't sure where else to turn to. Any suggestions would be very helpful. Thanks for the time!
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Yellow

Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 136
Graduate LLB Course
Sat Sep 08, 2007 07:30 PM
I would imagine that you would be better to do a JD then your bar exams then try and get a job in the UK. One of the things that I would check out is whether a 2 year LLB will qualifiy you to sit the NY bar which a 3 year degree will because it would be a way of ensuring you had somewhere to qualify if it all went wrong in the UK. You could also apply straight to do the GDL then the LPC and then look to get a job without doing the LLB at all. To be honest the best thing you could do is contact the schools you are interested in applying to explain who you are and ask if they could put you in contact with any students or graduates they have who have taken a similar route.
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USAN'UK

Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Posts: 23
Graduate LLB Course
Sat Sep 08, 2007 09:28 PM
Am I crazy for wanting to go to another country and study law with the idea of sucureing a job afterward? I mean, I could go over to the UK, do the course, and not even get sponsored. I could come back here and have trouble getting a job because I don't have a JD. I am not sure what to do, and need to decide so that I can take the nessecary courses. Whatever other advice would be great. Thanks!
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USAN'UK

Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Posts: 23
Graduate LLB Course
Sun Sep 09, 2007 01:25 PM
Quick question. Could anyone please teel me the reputation of City University London? Are they a good school? I don't really know much about them? Thanks, whatever information would be very helpful!
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Sunil

Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 11
Graduate LLB Course
Sun Sep 09, 2007 09:19 PM

If I were you I wouldn't even touch City University, London with a barge pole.



[Edited 09 Sep 2007 by Sunil]
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USAN'UK

Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Posts: 23
Graduate LLB Course
Sun Sep 09, 2007 09:54 PM
I am having diifculity finding a university with a Graduate Entry LLB program. Any advice, does any know of any others with that program in England??? Thanks! It's diifcult finding these things online and learning about the schools reputations. Any advice is well appreciated.
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ollyll

Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 3
Graduate LLB Course
Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:44 PM
USAN'UK,

There are a few Graduate LLB programmes in the UK, I believe Queen Marys offers one, as does Bristol. I am studying at City University on the GE LLB, and we have a number of North American students on the course. It is relatively small, numbering around 40 in all, however the students are a diverse and interesting bunch.

Of course, as a student, your primary concern will be the quality of the education. I believe City offers a decent and interesting syllabus, with a number of unusual and engaging electives. The comment by 'Sunil' that he would not touch City with a barge pole is not particularly helpful, although I will concede that as an undergrad education provider City University certainly has a long way to go.

What you must bear in mind is that you are essentially entering grad school. For postgraduate, professional orientated studies, such as Finance, Law and Heathcare, City has a very robust reputation.

In terms of facilities, City is fairly good, moreover it has merged with Inns of Court School of Law, an institution with an excellent reputation. In terms of value for money [Bristol is far more expensive as a course provider] and location, City is unrivalled.

If you are keen on studying in the UK, and London in particular, I would advise you take a close look at Queen Marys and City, both of which have solid reputations. A relevant footnote is that Queen Marys is part of the University of London, while City is not.

Alternatively, if you believe you have the grades and the drive, you can apply to do an LLB in two years at Oxford University.




[Edited 09 Sep 2007 by ollyll]
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USAN'UK

Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Posts: 23
Graduate LLB Course
Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:07 AM
Thanks for the help. SInce you are in City, would mind answering a couple of questions for me. Do think it's unrealistic for me to go to England in the hopes of eventually getting a job with a law firm there, being an American and all. Thanks for the help!
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Yellow

Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 136
Graduate LLB Course
Mon Sep 10, 2007 08:04 AM
You could also apply to Cambridge
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Suzan

Joined: 16 Jul 2007
Posts: 9
Graduate LLB Course
Mon Sep 10, 2007 09:03 AM

College of Law in London is exclusively teaching law courses. Maybe you should also enquire about their courses.

www.college-of-law.co.uk/prospective_students/defa…

Hope this helps...
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Anita_Lawyer

Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 2
Graduate LLB Course
Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:26 AM


Second Sunil's advice.

Steer clear of City University.

In fact if you check past posts(posted, I think, last year) on LLM Guide forum, some disgruntled ex-students (doing law courses at City) had talked about their total disillusionment of their time spent doing law course at City Univ.

Do also go through this past thread:

www.llm-guide.com/board/6558/rss

I think things got so bad in this discussion(6588) that a staff member Dr Riley of City Univ. had to intervene to defend the 'reputation'? of City University.

In fact, someone had very recently commented that City Univ is 'Z' tier or something...

[Edited 10 Sep 2007 by Anita_Lawyer]
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USAN'UK

Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Posts: 23
Graduate LLB Course
Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:28 AM
In regards to applying to Oxford, do I need to take the LNAT to apply for that program, I couldn't find it online. Also, in regards to concerns about City, I thaught that I saw it was ranked 23 by that Times UK article, is that correct? Furthermore, with applying to Cambridge, do I need to take the LNAT?? I have no idea what is on this exam, is it much like the US LSAT?? Thanks for all the help and suggestions!!
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ollyll

Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 3
Graduate LLB Course
Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:31 AM
USAN'UK

Before I go any further, I want to make it clear I'm not engaging in a debate about the reputation of City University. The regrettable intervention by Mr Riley was well-intentioned however it failed to mend any fences. Furthermore, as a City student myself it is likely I will be perceived as biased. So I won't waste time on that and instead try and answer your question.

As I previously mentioned, there are a number of North Americans on the course, this has been a trend year on year. My feeling is that most employers will see City as a university which provides you with vocational training. My intention in doing the 2 year LLB [I switched from a three year at SOAS] was to save time, money and to learn a little more than I would on a straightforward conversion course.

In London at least, City has a good reputation because of the people it attracts, in particular on the conversion course. It is a step on the way to qualifiying, much like the LPC. The advantage of the 2 year LLB is that it allows employers to see you engaging with law on a different level, and allows you to demonstrate your interest and potential through particular electives.

It doesn't matter that you're American! London is an international city, and its law firms want to achieve an international profile. This means they must endeavour to recruit from outside the UK. My honest opinion is that if you have the funds, and the grades, you should do a JD at a good school in the states. Most people are cognisant of the fact that legal training in the US is of a different calibre to the UK. You can always pop over here to do your LPC.

However if you are committed to studying in the UK and want to do a 2 year Graduate LLB, there are few options. City is a forerunner simply because its been running the course for so long, and because of the excellence of its conversion course. Study here, and graduate in the top quarter of the class and you'll be fine. This is providing that you have a good bachelors degree from a well-reputed university in the US.

P.S. Apropos Oxbridge - I'm not sure about the entry requirements for international students although I expect that you would not have to take the UK equivalent of LNAT. I can't be certain on this, but I'm pretty sure that if they offer you a place on an accelerated LLB, it will not be on the basis of such a test. Rather, it will be predicated on your transcript and interview, both of which will have to be appropriately impressive.

In relation to your question about rankings, which in my view are entirely fatuous [sorry], City was indeed ranked something like 23rd. Moreover it was ranked 5th this year for graduate prospects by the Times Good University Guide. Hope that helps.

[Edited 10 Sep 2007 by ollyll]
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Consultant

Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 1
Graduate LLB Course
Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:34 PM
I am an ex-student of City University and to be honest, I don't have very pleasant memories of the time spend at City Univ.

Indifferent management that is unresponsive to the complaints and grievances of students, average teaching quality and placement service cell, to put it mildly, not very helpful when you contact them.

Moreover, they are also pretty indifferent to the suggestions and feedback of alumini.

So unlike the gentleman ‘Ollyll’ who is at presently studying at City, I am afraid I would not be as enthusiastic about recommending City Univ. You would be wasting both your time and money at that place.

[Edited 10 Sep 2007 by Consultant]
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USAN'UK

Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Posts: 23
Graduate LLB Course
Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:42 AM
Wait, so the US JD is precieved to be better in comparison to other law degrees? There could be a debate on this either way, but in general. Which is happening, are more people coming to the US for a JD or are more US people going to other countries to practice law?? Is there a trend, if so what is the cause of this trend?
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USAN'UK

Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Posts: 23
Graduate LLB Course
Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:21 AM
Ok, quick question. Does anyone know the reputations of these following schools??

Quenn Mary, external program for the graduate LLB

University of Leeds, 2 year LLB

University of Kent, 2 year LLB

and finally the University of Aberdeen 2 year LLB

I just don't know anything about these colleges, any information would be great. Thanks again for all the help!!!
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P_Martini

Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 64
Graduate LLB Course
Thu Sep 13, 2007 03:14 AM
USAN'UK:

It may be a little perverse to say that you are lucky to discover how complex a law career can be before actually applying to law school, but here's another consideration for you anyway.

The QLTT, if you have not already discovered it, is the "Qualified Lawyers Transfer Test" (or something like that), but the basic idea is that after a certain time in practice in a foreign jurisdiction (e.g., 5 years), a lawyer is able to sit the QLTT and qualify in, for example, the U.K. Other members of the board may be able to correct me if I am mistaken or may add their expertise.

As an American law student, I really don't know how the U.S. J.D. is perceived in the U.K. or how successful Americans are applying to U.K. firms. I do know that if you go to an ABA school in the U.S., you can sit any U.S. bar exam. If I had serious concerns about Americans getting a job in the U.K, then I would be inclined to take the QLTT.

The best advice I could give you would be to apply to 2 and 3 year programs in the U.K. and the U.S. and just take your best option at the time. If you get into Harvard but for some reason don't manage much success with your U.K. applications (I can't imagine that circumstance would actually confront anyone), then I think most people wouldn't really have too tough a decision to just do the 3 year Harvard program.

Finally, from an American perspective, I would say:

1. Aberdeen
2. Leeds
3. Kent
and finally, because you say you want to do Queen Mary's External Programme:
4. Queen Mary. Otherwise, I might put the "non-External Programme" at Queen Mary second on that list, which I admit to basing purely on name recognition.

Good luck!

P.Martini

[Edited 13 Sep 2007 by P_Martini]
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chuckles

Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 3
Graduate LLB Course
Wed Sep 19, 2007 04:11 PM
Hello all, I'm new to this site. I am an America student. I'm about to graduate with my US Bachelor's degree. I am looking into law s chools in the UK with the idea of eventually practicing law in the UK. I am looking at the University City College of London. My concern is that if I go to the UK take the two year course in the Gradaute Entry LLB, and then either the BVC or the LPC, that I won't be able to secure pupalige, or a sponsorship from a UK law firm. With the immigration requirements being as they are, I don't want to go over there only to come back to the States to have to go to more school just to take the Bar, say in D.C. I realize this site is concerning LLM programs. But I wasn't sure where else to turn to. Any suggestions would be very helpful. Thanks for the time!


I wonder how well you thought this through and understand all of the issues involved. Based on your posting I am assuming that you do not hold citizenship in the UK?

Since you would be entering as an international student you would have to apply to the program now and then to the Home Office for a student visa. The student visa as I understand it only allows you to work 20 hours during school and upto 40 once you are out. Plus it is good only for up to two years with you having to reapply before it expires.

Schools do differentiate between UK / EU students and foreign students. You would be charged international rates from the school which varies but would be somewhere in excess of $16,000 / year for tuitition excluding living arrangements.

Once you get your degree from your US school you can submit it to the Law Society and if they accept it you can be given acadmeic standing which would allow you to take the one year full time graduate diploma in law instead of the three year LLB. I would suspect based on what it costs the UK student to take the graduate diploma in law your costs would be in excess of $24,000 for tuition.

Have you calculated the cost of living for either program? Remember the pound is $2 for every £1 and living in the UK would be quite expensive for you.

I suspect pupilege and training as a solicitor once you complete your vocation studies would fall under the definition work since you are employed by the firm which means you would need to secure a work permit. My guess is that getting a work permit to train as a solicitor would be almost impossible to get as there are many qualified UK / EU citizens that could fill the role and make the Home Office unlikely to issue a work permit for it.

My recommendation would be to contact the Home Office, website: www.homeoffice.gov.uk for their contact information as you have at least two immigration questions, applying for a student visa, student visa restrictions, and if training as a solicitor or barrister after completing vocational training constitutes work. If it is considered work how likely is it that you would get a work permit to do it.

If you did come to the UK to study I would prepare to study for the degree but be prepared not to have the visa extended to allow training as a solicitor or barrister.

[Edited 19 Sep 2007 by chuckles]
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mju

Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1
Graduate LLB Course
Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:22 PM
Check out the MA in Legal Studies at the University of Bristol.
www.bristol.ac.uk/law/pgdegrees/taughtdegrees/llm-…

[Edited 23 Sep 2007 by mju]
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ayun_2000

Joined: 04 Oct 2007
Posts: 11
Graduate LLB Course
Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:24 AM
Let me tell you all one thing...particularly those who are coming out of India to do an LLM with the hope of starting an international career in law, that it is next to impossible to find jobs if you are not a candidate from European community member states in the legal sector. I was in a stable job in Mumbai, came out to internationalise my career, did LLM in Europe and came to UK to do PhD and also pass the solicitors exam with the hope of getting a job in UK or Europe but it is not possible. There is a covert racial discrimination against non-EC members. The immigration laws are also very tough and it is next to impossible to get work permits for LLMs etc. So think twice or as many times as you need to before you leave everyhting to come and do an LLM etc and before wasting your or your father's hard earned money. The opportunities in India are abundant and would get even better. LLM from these European and UK universities hardly count in job market unless u want to pursue an academic career but that too is ver discriminatory in its present form and unless of course just for the sake of staying in UK/Europe, you are prepared to anything.
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Melbgrad

Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 11
Graduate LLB Course
Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:04 PM
ayun_2000, I don't think it is racial discrimination, but about not being a European citizen. I am from Australia and did an LLM in the UK. On finishing my LLM, I had no choice but to return to Australia, which was clear from the conditions of my original visa.

The fact is - and it is the same all around the world - that a student visa to do an LLM (or any other degree, whether in microbiology or basketweaving) is a STUDENT visa. It is not intended to be a work permit, except insofar as undertaking incidental work of not more than 20 hours per week to support your studies (eg in a Bar or Tesco).

Also, as an LLM is an academic - and not a professional qualification - it is a misconception to think that it will guarantee red carpet treatment at a Magic Circle firm - or even a High Street firm at that. There is a glut of qualified law graduates in the UK, and no country's migration rules will prioritise a non-citizen for a job where there is a citizen who is adequately qualified.

So, if you want to come and study for an LLM in the UK/Europe, do it with the very clear understanding that you are only here to get the LLM - if you want anything else, it is a separate process entirely, and prob not possible on a student visa.

That said, Scotland has a scheme for overeas graduates in any discipline from Scottish institutions (and remember Scotland is a distinct legal system from England) to remain for two years after graduation.
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ayun_2000

Joined: 04 Oct 2007
Posts: 11
Graduate LLB Course
Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:34 AM
I also did QLTT with this hope and sort of assurance from many of the firms and also job agents that doing so is the first entry point to get into a firm. But having done that I realised that is not the case. The selection process is based first on your nationality, race and then contacts and may be then comes the degree etc. I am not so sure how beneficial QLTT would be for India either. All this hype around QLTT promoted by Law Society, according to me, is merely to cash in this craze for getting foreign degrees and also a joint promotion to open the legal sector in India again with this spin that it is beneficial for India which will never be the case. And that is exactly the mentality of most of these foreign insttutions offering LLM. LLM degress are cash cows for them where they milk the foreign students particulalry those from Asian countries with no real scope in the job market. I dont know about the US degrees but I am sure of European and UK degrees; of course you must keep out Universities like Cambridge, Oxford, Queen Mary and LSE from this trend but others are mostly run as money making machines and seen as a very good aspect of the respective economy. Think you are spending your money to support their economy. So far so so good. But what do you get in return-a mere degree with no international job prospect? I know so many Indians who did their LLMs from these little or not so well known Institutions spending substantial sums and returned to India after trying to find job and landing up in menial jobs in hotels etc and even back in India they either landed up in same job or struggled to make up for their lack of India experience. Believe me, law is still a very regional subject, a very culturally entrenched profession. These firms have a very discriminatory selection process. Based ont the same qualification they will take Australians, even Candians but rarely Indians. The few Indians that you may come across are rarely Indians from India but they are British Indians. And this is also becasue they want to push the India practice and want to lliberalise the market so they are putting up Indian faces in their firms. But earlier it was equally discriminatory against even British Indians who were culturally integrated with British society. They have same attitude towards Africans-even British Africans. Recently there was this minority legal practiioners report which did a survey and found that the law firms rarely employ Africans. Yes tomorrow if they found that in Nigeria there is a gold mine and they want to do legal business there they may start emplying nigerians but not before that. These firms see Indian market as a gold mine and thus are so ebnt upon to lobby the government to liberalise the market, conduct QLTT in Mumbai and Delhi, recruit penultimate year students from NLSU and give them training contracts but do they have a similar open policy for other Indian expereinced qualified lawyers? NO. So the moot question-Is there a benefit doing an LLM form these European Universities-depends on what one wants to do: If searching for jobs-forget it unless oyu are from Cambridge, LSE or Oxford and few others but that is also not that forthcoming. Want to go back to India-may be companies would give you some crdit for your foreign degree but not so much.QLTT-absolutely not UNLESS- you come with huge business and political contacts in India to provide enough business for law firms. Certainly not if dont have them and think that your talent and experience and LLM degree would give you a good job.
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york


Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 90
Graduate LLB Course
Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:39 AM
The selection process is based first on your nationality, race and then contacts and may be then comes the degree etc.


I think you cannot generalize things like that. All major law firms have a clear policy not to discriminate applicants on the basis of nationality or race. Their clients are from all over the world, so it would hardly make sense not to hire well qualified lawyers from other countries. It may be true that getting a law firm job in the UK may not be easier if you have done your first degree in law abroad, but that will be the same in any country of the world. There are many examples of Indian lawyers who ended up in major UK law firms after finishing their LLM or LLB in the UK.

www.lse.ac.uk/collections/graduateDestinations/gra…
www.lse.ac.uk/collections/graduateDestinations/gra…

India is too important as a market for the big law firms to ignore Indian graduates:

www.law.com/jsp/llf/PubArticleLLF.jsp?id=118457679…
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ayun_2000

Joined: 04 Oct 2007
Posts: 11
Graduate LLB Course
Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:11 AM
Yes they are taking Indians because of two prime reasons-one, they want Indian faces in their firm for the Indian practice group in sectors like M&A and finance; two, because by doing the first they can lobby for the liberalisation of Indian legal market. Did they have same policy earlier towards Indians even for British Indians?Do they have similar recruitment trend towards Africans or Arbas or Muslims or even Pakistanis or Bangldeshis or Srilankans?Do they have similar recruitment for Indian lawyers specialising in other sectors such as Media or IP laws?Will they have similar recruitement and retention policy if tomorrow Indian economy suffers a recession?Did they have similar recruitment trend in past towards Indian lawyers? Probably answer to all these questions is NO.

The examples you have cited are indeed good and congratualtions to them. And surely no firm or organisation will ever put out a policy stating that they would discriminate based on Nationality, race etc-legally they cant. Surely you will not find such policies stuck out on the notice board of the firms or on their websites. But such discriminatory practice exist-in a very covert, subtly visible and deeply entrenched manner which few of those who have made it, try to cover up by citing the examples as you have cited.
The question is very simple do these law firms are as open, non-discriminatory, unbiased, democratic as they pretend to be and they want the other legal markets to be? And second question is whether doing an LLM from these not so well known institutions, excluding the well knowns such as LSE, Oxford, Cambridge, Queen Mary and may be few others-worthwhile for getting jobs in these law firms?In all probabilities NOT.
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Melbgrad

Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 11
Graduate LLB Course
Sat Oct 06, 2007 01:15 PM
It sounds to me like there is a lot of mis-information being circulated about what an LLM is. An LLM is NOT a professional qualification, and should never be done with a view to it being a quick entry point to the UK job market (or any other job market).

An LLM is an opportunity to deepen one's academic understanding of the law, and if you are an overseas student, to have the opportunity to experience tertiary education (and different academic experts) abroad.

Further, entry clearance to the UK to undertake an LLM is very clearly provided on the basis that the recipient of the visa will not remain in the UK after obtaining the qualification (except if you graduate from a Scottish institution, but re-qualifying in Scots law is three years of pain, even if you are English, and beyond the 2 year work in Scotland scheme).

If you want to practice in the UK, you will need to do the QLTT, and find work/obtain a work permit BEFORE arriving. This therefore may mean returning home and applying for positions from your home country after an LLM - work experience is probably more valuable than an LLM is this respect.

As for the Australians and Canadians who get work, the vast majority do this via an ancestry visa, which allows persons (of any nationality) who have one British grandparent to work in the UK. In my case, I have one parent who qualifies, but I myself am stuffed (as all my grandparents are Australian).

That said, the UK is more generous than most other countries - such as Australia, NZ, Canada, US (and India??) - that don't have ancestry visas and therefore I do not believe the process to be racist in the way that you allege. It is simply the reality that as a matter of law, these firms must employ locals (of whom there are thousands looking for work) before employing someone who requires a work permit, unless that person has specific skills, which to be absolutely honest, won't come from an LLM.
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