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Job prospects

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PP65468
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 17
Job prospects
Thu Sep 20, 2007 06:01 AM
The program looks really great, but could someone comment on the job prospects after graduation? How hard is it to get one of these internships if you do not have a German law degree, and how often does this lead to permanent employment after graduation? Sorry to be so direct on this issue, but I know that a lot of LLM programs have really good academic programs but job prospects after graduation (especially in the country where you do the LLM) are a completely different matter.
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Jai1
Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 43
Job prospects
Thu Sep 20, 2007 07:36 AM
@PP65468

Thank you for raising this issue. I am also looking for it.
Other threads of ILF gave some idea that job prospects are good but no specific answers or any statics.

Regards
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ravish
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 9
Job prospects
Fri Oct 05, 2007 03:30 AM
hi jaideep,
even i m sailing in d same boat....
but seems dat nobody has an answer to our question...
neways, I shall be obliged if u could let me no any information, u get to know...
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ayun_2000
Joined: 04 Oct 2007
Posts: 11
Job prospects
Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:13 AM
Let me tell you all one thing...particularly those who are coming out of India to do an LLM with the hope of starting an international career in law, that it is next to impossible to find jobs if you are not a candidate from European community member states in the legal sector. I was in a stable job in Mumbai, came out to internationalise my career, did LLM in Europe and came to UK to do PhD and also pass the solicitors exam with the hope of getting a job in UK or Europe but it is not possible. There is a covert racial discrimination against non-EC members. The immigration laws are also very tough and it is next to impossible to get work permits for LLMs etc. So think twice or as many times as you need to before you leave everyhting to come and do an LLM etc and before wasting your or your father's hard earned money. The opportunities in India are abundant and would get even better. LLM from these European and UK universities hardly count in job market unless u want to pursue an academic career but that too is ver discriminatory in its present form.
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ravish
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 9
Job prospects
Sat Oct 06, 2007 03:25 AM
hey thanks Ayun,
thanks for ur advice.
Could u tell us as to whether passing QLTT exam could help us in india..? I mean to ask whether passing out in QLTT could help us getting a better job in any LPO company in India..?
By d way, wat do u do at present..? If u dont mind sharing ur story.....

[Edited by ravish on 06 Oct 2007]

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ayun_2000
Joined: 04 Oct 2007
Posts: 11
Job prospects
Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:05 AM
Presently, I am in UK doing a PhD as I wanted to keep the academic career option open and also attached with a firm on a freelance basis; but I also did QLTT with this hope and sort of assurance from many of the firms and also job agents that doing so is the first entry point to get into a firm. But having done that I realised that is not the case. The selection process is based first on your nationality, race and then contacts and may be then comes the degree etc. I am not so sure how beneficial QLTT would be for India either. All this hype around QLTT promoted by Law Society, according to me, is merely to cash in this craze for getting foreign degrees and also a joint promotion to open the legal sector in India again with this spin that it is beneficial for India which will never be the case. And that is exactly the mentality of most of these foreign insttutions offering LLM. LLM degress are cash cows for them where they milk the foreign students particulalry those from Asian countries with no real scope in the job market. I dont know about the US degrees but I am sure of European and UK degrees; of course you must keep out Universities like Cambridge, Oxford, Queen Mary and LSE from this trend but others are mostly run as money making machines and seen as a very good aspect of the respective economy. Think you are spending your money to support their economy. So far so so good. But what do you get in return-a mere degree with no international job prospect? I know so many Indians who did their LLMs from these little or not so well known Institutions spending substantial sums and returned to India after trying to find job and landing up in menial jobs in hotels etc and even back in India they either landed up in same job or struggled to make up for their lack of India experience. Believe me, law is still a very regional subject, a very culturally entrenched profession. These firms have a very discriminatory selection process. Based ont the same qualification they will take Australians, even Candians but rarely Indians. The few Indians that you may come across are rarely Indians from India but they are British Indians. And this is also becasue they want to push the India practice and want to lliberalise the market so they are putting up Indian faces in their firms. But earlier it was equally discriminatory against even British Indians who were culturally integrated with British society. They have same attitude towards Africans-even British Africans. Recently there was this minority legal practiioners report which did a survey and found that the law firms rarely employ Africans. Yes tomorrow if they found that in Nigeria there is a gold mine and they want to do legal business there they may start emplying nigerians but not before that. These firms see Indian market as a gold mine and thus are so ebnt upon to lobby the government to liberalise the market, conduct QLTT in Mumbai and Delhi, recruit penultimate year students from NLSU and give them training contracts but do they have a similar open policy for other Indian expereinced qualified lawyers? NO. So the moot question-Is there a benefit doing an LLM form these European Universities-depends on what one wants to do: If searching for jobs-forget it unless oyu are from Cambridge, LSE or Oxford and few others but that is also not that forthcoming. Want to go back to India-may be companies would give you some crdit for your foreign degree but not so much.QLTT-absolutely not UNLESS- you come with huge business and political contacts in India to provide enough business for law firms. Certainly not if dont have them and think that your talent and experience and LLM degree would give you a good job.
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ayun_2000
Joined: 04 Oct 2007
Posts: 11
Job prospects
Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:23 AM
If you are in the start of your career, you may take the plunge, see Europe/UK etc. But if you have 2/3+experience-never take the chance. After I left in 2004 and with this huge surge in Indian economy, I have seen almost all my friends and colleagues rising vertically both professionally and monetarily whether in corporate or in profession. I also know of few people who after getting their LLMs somehow got the jobs in UK, Germany and even France but left the jobs, wnet back to India and are doing equally good. The reason they left was not they felt homesick but because they found the working atmosphere racially demotivating and discriminatory. Even those who are in jobs, not necessarily legal jobs, complain about the discriminatroy practices in job places. In India, asmuch as I know, irrespective of office politics, which is everywhere, if you are hardworking and efficient your efforts are well rewarded and there are so many options that you can always jump but here it is near to impossible with barriers, first in getting jobs, remaining in those jobs for the sake of work permit and then also bear the discriminatory practices. To top all this, if there is redundancy, if you are coloured, you woudl be the first to get the boot. In India also there is a chance for this, but then you can start your own practice at relatively low cost or join other jobs.
I am not from IIT or IIM or NLSU so I have limitations and I guess not everyone out there are either from these institutions. Therefore before risking your money, time, energy, effort in trying to get an LLM from a foreing institution or Unis-just dont do it because it is foreign. If you are so eager to get a post graduate degree and are already in legal profession or job, do it from postal course run by Indian universities-the good ones-MBL etc or as extrnal candidates-do concentrate of PG degree in HR or finance or capital market according to your job profile and build upon your existing job profile. But dont get lured into the craze of foreign LLMs-it is useless.
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york

Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 167
Job prospects
Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:32 AM
The selection process is based first on your nationality, race and then contacts and may be then comes the degree etc.


I think you cannot generalize things like that. All major law firms have a clear policy not to discriminate applicants on the basis of nationality or race. Their clients are from all over the world, so it would hardly make sense not to hire well qualified lawyers from other countries. It may be true that getting a law firm job in the UK may not be easier if you have done your first degree in law abroad, but that will be the same in any country of the world. There are many examples of Indian lawyers who ended up in major UK law firms after finishing their LLM or LLB in the UK.

www.lse.ac.uk/collections/graduateDestinations/graduateProfi…
www.lse.ac.uk/collections/graduateDestinations/graduateProfi…
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york

Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 167
Job prospects
Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:38 AM
India is too important as a market for the big law firms to ignore Indian graduates:

www.law.com/jsp/llf/PubArticleLLF.jsp?id=1184576794517
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ravish
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 9
Job prospects
Sun Oct 07, 2007 03:58 AM
thanks to you both..
i really found the information very useful for deciding my plans...
Could u tell me, apart from LSE, Queen marry etc., which other school are good, looking from the viewpoint of job prospects..?
I was planning to go for an L.L.M. in IT & Telecommunication law from Strathclyde, Glasgow...... Of course, i need to give a second thought to my plans, but still i would like to have any information from you friends....
If u have any useful information regarding the law education in Strathclyde University, Glasgow or ILF, Germany....
I shall be obliged to have the information..
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narayanhar
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 7
Job prospects
Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:40 PM

[Edited by narayanhar on 13 Oct 2007]

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ayun_2000
Joined: 04 Oct 2007
Posts: 11
Job prospects
Fri Oct 12, 2007 04:52 PM
In reply to what York has said, no firm will ever come up with a policy stuck on its wall or on its website that it has discriminatory practices but the trend of recruitment shows exactly that. The percentage of African, Arabian, Muslim lawyer are very few and selection is more or less on the basis of colour of skin and nationality, practice which is covert but widespread like an unwritten policy document in practice by British firms. First I thought, Before going to Germany, that Germans are racist but living in Uk for last two years it is becoming more than apparent that Brits are the most racist I have come across till date and they are very systematic and polished about the entire thing, saying something but doing just the opposite. Tobe short the most hypocrite race.
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ravish
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 9
Job prospects
Sat Oct 13, 2007 04:10 AM
Well, i really get even more confused friends. I actually thought that USA and UK are very good destinations for an ambitious lawyer and especially USA if not UK.
But, as someone has rightly said, better to learn from others experience...So i no longer possess a keen desire to come down to uk or usa.

By d way, i would like to put one more question to you friends...Kindly pardon me if this thread is not the right place to ask the question, but you friends have already spent some or more time in USA or uk , so at least there are the right persons to put the questions to them.
Well friends, I am an engineer and also an L.L.B. graduate and planning to give patent agents exam next year.
Can you tell me how could I get the work for drafting of patents of any USA or UK based companies.? If you have some idea about how the uk based companies decide to outsource their work and what are the primary qualifications they are looking for..?

[Edited by ravish on 13 Oct 2007]

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york

Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 167
Job prospects
Sat Oct 13, 2007 08:03 AM
Ayun is right that as an LLM student with a first law degree from India or another foreign country you cannot rely on getting a job in a UK law firm after finshing the LLM. Howver, in my view his comments about racism in the UK are exaggerated and dangerous. To state that the British are "the most hypocrite race" is racist itself and insulting to the majority of people in the UK who are friendly and open towards Indians and other foreigners. You can also find positive by Indians in the internet, like this one:

----

The law student and ...

Aparna Menon is an Indian law student at Cardiff University. Here, she discusses her rewarding experiences of studying in the UK

We don�t always realise our true potential. It is only when we encounter difficult situations or new experiences that we discover our strengths and weaknesses, and our ability to develop and meet new challenges. This has certainly been my experience of studying a postgraduate law degree at Cardiff University.

Education has always been my top priority. After graduating in Law, I spent the first years of my professional career litigating in various areas of law, and then as a trademarks advocate in a leading intellectual property firm. During this time I had many promotions, and many opportunities to travel abroad. However, it was only when I decided to pursue my dream of doing a postgraduate degree in commercial law that I felt satisfied.

I decided on the UK as my study destination as it has a reputation for high quality education which is recognised globally. Moreover it offers one-year master�s programmes (as opposed to two-year programmes in other countries) thus adding value for money. I applied to a few of the well-known universities in the UK (Leeds, Cardiff, Leicester, Hull, Sussex and Durham) and got selected for all of them. Now, it was my turn to make the right choice.

Settling into student life
I chose to go to Cardiff University as the content was more compact. The programme provided modules like International Banking Law, Corporate Governance and Competition Law,which are relevant for the Indian economy.

Coming to Cardiff and settling into life here was a process in itself. Initially I was homesick. However, the welcoming atmosphere at the university and the large number of Indian students put me at ease. I was left spellbound by the scenic beauty of Cardiff.

I chose to specialise in Comparative Corporate Governance, International Banking Law and Competition Law. Though the LLM programme is a taught course, it follows the lines of a research based programme. This meant getting the best of both worlds.

Academic life at Cardiff
The professors at Cardiff University are authorities in their respective fields. They deliver lectures and provide handouts to complement their lectures. Students are then given a lot of reading and research work to do for forthcoming lectures to ensure that they are prepared to have analytical discussions in class with tutors and fellow students.

Making presentations is another important part of the course and can be done using Power Point or with the help of a word processor. I have gained a lot from this teaching method where the class is not only a podium for tutors to enlighten students, but also a place for students to shed their inhibitions and discuss issues freely. This helps you develop your own analytical skills, makes you realise through research and discussions your areas of interest, and helps you gain confidence while addressing the class and the tutor.

I have found the academic regime at Cardiff intensive but rewarding. I have gained a great deal during my time here. Prior to coming to Cardiff I had not realised the full extent of my ability to write and speak English.While making presentations and writing my assignments I have been congratulated by my professors and fellow students on my use of the English language, understanding of the subjects and my writing skill.

Plans for the future
I feel that whatever you receive from the community should be returned. I have benefited from this institution so I feel a sense of duty to make any small contribution I can, to uphold the reputation of this great university. I hope to do this by achieving a distinction in my master�s degree. I want to take the skills, knowledge and cultural experience that I have gained back to my home country, India. That way, I hope to become an academic and cultural ambassador with a mission to strengthen the relationship between the two countries.

... the law professor

Philip Thomas is a professor of law at Cardiff University. Here, he reveals why Indian law students are so successful in the UK

When I first came to India in 1992 it was for the purposes of recruitment and university law teaching. I am now a visiting professor at NALSAR, Hyderabad, a law university with which Cardiff University is linked. I consider myself fortunate to have �discovered� India and Indian law students.

The Indian economy is one of the fastest growing economies in the world. However, inward foreign investment, joint ventures, and privatisation are relatively recent developments that require new and challenging national responses in order to maximise the potential benefits for India.

As money, credit, goods, and commercial transactions move from country to country, there are professionals who are intimately involved at every stage in the process: lawyers. Lawyers traditionally focused on national laws within sovereign boundaries. But this is no longer the case. Such matters as criminal acts and family affairs normally remain subject to Indian law and are decided in Indian courts but this is not true of commercial activities. The global market demands lawyers who can work effectively for their clients no matter where they are located. For these lawyers, time, space and location have a different meaning.

The transnational lawyer
The traditional Indian lawyer has been joined by a new category of lawyer: the global lawyer. This new type of lawyer may not have any individuals as clients, instead working exclusively with corporations. There may not be any face-to-face communication or client counselling sessions in chambers. Email, telephone, fax and courier services may replace or certainly supplement consultations with clients. International time differences may demand that the global lawyer works antisocial hours, for example, in the middle of the night. These lawyers do not seek litigation and court work. The new lawyer may work in cyberspace where contracts are transnational.

Indian law students in the UK
Indians are increasingly aware of these exciting opportunities in their legal profession. Many are now electing to study law in the United Kingdom either at undergraduate or postgraduate level. For example, in the Law School of Cardiff University there are currently 50 Indian nationals studying for the LLB or LLM. These students intend to return to India to practice law in the global commercial sector while some will qualify as solicitors or barristers. Currently, much of the �global� work which enters India is undertaken by foreign law firms, particularly those based in London. The new, transnational Indian lawyers intend to challenge for these non-Indian clients and offer a fully professional, local service of the highest standards.

Indian law students studying in the UK are highly successful. Their strong command of the English language ensures they operate at the same linguistic level as �home� students (UK nationals). In Cardiff, Indian law students continue to top the class in terms of �foreign� nationals. They also compete successfully with �home� students. Recently,Vijay Vetriselam, from Ooty, Tamil Nadu, obtained a first class law degree and proceeded to Oxford for postgraduate studies. Another successful student was Shweta Shroff from Delhi who went to London School of Economics for her LLM. Other Indian students went to Cambridge to pursue further degrees. Some of the Cardiff Law graduates qualify as solicitors, some as barristers, and others return home to practice law. My colleagues at the Law School welcome Indian students as they recognise that there is no substitute for hard work, commitment, and intellectual ability.

Indian students involved in student life
The social experience of living an �international� lifestyle in the UK ensures that these young lawyers develop the social skills to be able to operate effectively with non-Indian clients. Client confidence is as important as legal knowledge, and living in the West helps promote awareness of both the differences and similarities between our two cultures. Indian law students in Cardiff are active in societies, clubs and sports, especially cricket! They demonstrate a rounded attitude to life: both academic and social. One thing of particular interest is the commitment to junior Indian students. Senior students are always willing to help and provide support for freshers. This occurs, formally, through the �buddy scheme� and the Indian law society, and also informally through personal relationships.

www.educationuk.org/clubukindia/3/feat_campus_stud.html
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york

Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 167
Job prospects
Sat Oct 13, 2007 08:16 AM
It would be interesting to hear about the experiences of other Indian law students who actually live in the UK or Europe.

[Edited by york on 13 Oct 2007]

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nirch100
Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 2
Job prospects
Thu Nov 08, 2007 08:37 PM
Hello,

In order to improve your prospects, take the Qualified Lawyers Transfer Test (QLTT). This will increase your prospcets when you approach law firms and recruitment agencies.

Good luck!

[Edited by Admin on 25 Nov 2007]

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