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Are LLMs discriminated against?

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Legally Blonde


Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 29
Are LLMs discriminated against?
Wed Apr 13, 2005 09:30 PM
Iīm worried. Spoke to an LLM graduate who said that LLMs generally are considered to be second-rate students. Outside the US, it seems like an LLM is a Masterīs Degree while being there you are taking classes with all the JDs and generally performing worse than them. I also heard that LLM students hardly get any attention from Professors.
Is this true??
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tigerex

Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 19
Re: Are LLMs discriminated against?
Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:27 PM
It always ends up with English problem. Some professors just don't understand why foreigners can't speak English well and how much money we contribute to the school.

If you speak and write English well, there will be no problem.
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kkk

Joined: 04 Apr 2005
Posts: 8
Re: Are LLMs discriminated against?
Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:02 PM
I' ve heard the same thing from NYU....but not from GULC, where they seem to be LLM students friendly!!
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peggyw77

Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 67
Re: Are LLMs discriminated against?
Thu Apr 14, 2005 01:27 AM
...Outside the US, it seems like an LLM is a Masterīs Degree while being there you are taking classes with all the JDs and generally performing worse than them...


LLM students generally perform worse than JD students? Is this a language problem as well?
I am thinking that if one is from an English-spoken (or even a common law system) country, isn't one supposed to do better than JD students since that person has already got much more legal education than current JD students?
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Eli

Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 4
Re: Are LLMs discriminated against?
Thu Apr 14, 2005 04:59 AM
I study at American University in Washington, DC and here the professors are LLM friendly. However, if you start looking for an associate job at a law firm it's a different story, even the fact that you passed the NY bar is not going to make the partners choose an LLM over a JD.
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marcia

Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 27
Re: Are LLMs discriminated against?
Thu Apr 14, 2005 01:44 PM
That's true about NY Bar exam. I know people from my country that have taken de bar successfully and didnt' get a job in US Law firms.

However, I believe it doesn't matter where you get your LL.M degree, what really matters is the contacts you have and the networking you make.
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Bitsou

Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 126
Re: Are LLMs discriminated against?
Thu Apr 14, 2005 05:31 PM
Hello :)
What you say is surely true as regards an employment in a US Law firm, for obvious reasons (would you employ someone who's unable to write English properly...).

As far as LLM's are concerned, the time Law Schools take to admit or refuse students make me think that, on the opposite, they hope to get the best ones they can for their own credit and international reputation. However, the situation might be different during classes, depending upon the Professors. I can also imagine that it's quite hard and intimidating for European students to take a word during the class while knowing that you can't compete with JD's language abilities; some Professors may thus in the end take to ignore you. But if you show your capacities, you won't have any problem. Some European people who did a LLM then were admitted to make a SJD...do you think they would have been enrolled if they were considered that inferior to the JD's :) ?
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Nina

Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 13
Re: Are LLMs discriminated against?
Thu Apr 14, 2005 06:41 PM
I do not study in the US but will add this about grades/performance: while LLM students at my school take classes with JDs/LLBs, they have different course requirements. We all read the same materials but LLM students are expected to write longer papers (40-60 pages) with extensive outside research in lieu of exams or smaller assignments. I am pretty sure the professors expect higher quality when marking LLM work. So you might get lower marks than JD students but it is because the assignments are more difficult and the standards of evaluation tougher- not a reflection of the quality of LLM students.
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Frankie

Joined: 14 Apr 2005
Posts: 7
Re: Are LLMs discriminated against?
Fri Apr 15, 2005 06:53 AM
I am an LLM about to graduate at NYU. I am not a typical LLM because I'm from an English-speaking country so there's no language issue. Having said that, the truth is that getting a permanent position as an associate at a top Manhattan firm is extremely difficult for LLM's. While it is a bit easier if you're from an English-speaking, common-law country, there are absolutely no guarantees. To improve your chances (no matter where you're from) you have to do a number of things: work extremely hard in your studies to get the best grades you can, network your ass off (eg. with JD's, professors, individuals at law firms, and the career placement office) and take part in activities that you can list on your resume (eg. journals, moots, etc.) As you can imagine, all of this is harder if you have difficulty with English. However, even if you do all this successfully, it's still hard to get a job. If you specialize in a particular field (eg tax or IP) and the area happens to be hot, you might be slightly luckier. Just remember, for every one of you, there are lots of JD's also seeking the same position, so you have to be able to demonstrate why you have something that others don't have.

I am not familiar with the "international lawyer programs" that many of the firms have. From what I understand, you work at a NY office for 9-12 months and then go back to your home country. I would imagine that these positions are also very competitive, so I would still recommend you do all of the above to improve your chances.

I think you should choose to do an LLM primarily for other reasons. It can be an extremely fulfilling experience - academically, culturally and socially. You will meet people and make contacts that can last a long time. This is very valuable. And if you get that Manhattan job of your dreams - even better.

Regarding the comment that NYU is LLM-unfriendly, that is completely untrue. Many of the professors take a special interest in foreign students and encourage their participation in class. If you work hard and demonstrate that you are a serious student, professors will be very helpful and receptive, no matter where you're from. Even with some language difficulty, you can do very well (for example, I know one student from a non-English speaking country who got almost straight A's in the first semester).

In sum, if you go into it with realistic expectations, you can get a lot from the experience.
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marcia

Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 27
Re: Are LLMs discriminated against?
Fri Apr 15, 2005 01:57 PM
Frankie,
Thank you for your comments!! they are really useful...
Did you get a job in US?
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MJ

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 16
Re: Are LLMs discriminated against?
Fri Apr 15, 2005 06:52 PM
As far as I know, from my observations at my law school, the LLM students are treated with alot of respect by Professors and staff. If anything, I recall Professors encouraging LLM student participation. In fact, LLM students were given special testing accomodations for one class and are taken out of the stringent JD curve. However, I do remember a few JD students complaining about lLLM language barriers when they were assigned team work with LLM students. I really think it was just the competitiveness and caddy-ness of the JD students.

Further, I knew many foreign LLMs who got straight A's, and some who did very poorly. Two students who did poorly were ex-english teachers/professors in their home county. So, for those two, it wasnt about the language. It just really depends on the individual's capabilities. The language barrier can be tough - but it is not a major reason. So, you can't really generalize.

Also, I knew of one LLM student who had horrible english and yet, she was offerred a really nice job at a very big and prestigious U.S. law firm.
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Frankie

Joined: 14 Apr 2005
Posts: 7
Re: Are LLMs discriminated against?
Fri Apr 15, 2005 07:04 PM
Yes, I did get a job - and it was a very difficult process... but it is possible.
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Legally Blonde


Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 29
Re: Are LLMs discriminated against?
Sun Apr 17, 2005 05:57 PM
I agree with those who said itīs not just about the language.... I donīt understand why not speaking the language wonderfully (although a reasonable level must be necessary) would be a good reason why a US law firm would have a problem hiring an LLM. Iīm from a spanish speaking country, and some firms here donīt have a problem with having foreign lawyers working there (on the contrary, they seem to welcome them), in spite of them having, in some cases, serious language problems and lack of knowledge of our legal system. I guess there are other motives why they are valued, eg. useful for clients with connections with a specific region. I think this value sometimes does not get enough recognition, which might explain the disadvantaged treatment sometimes given to LLMs in comparison with JDs. A more practical reason for their reluctance may lie in the extra costs of training/visa issues which foreign lawyers require. Another possibility might be a feeling that an LLM doesnīt really deserve equal treatment in the job market as they did not go through the 3 years of law school in US standards/costs.
I think that Marcia and Frankie are right about the importance of good grades and networking to improve oneīs chances....
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