LLM Discussion Board

LL.M. Discussion Board > USA > Grades for jobs??

Grades for jobs??

Author	Message
woods Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 4	Grades for jobs?? Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:05 PM this is a question for those of you who've had some good luck in the us job market - do your law school grades really count and if so what kinds of grades do you need to land a job in the us? i have really good work experience but it looks like i'm heading towards a B / B+ average (dunno all my grades yet) - are firms going to reject me straightaway cause my grades aren't good enough?
Profile P.M.	Quote
avonlady Joined: 14 Jan 2008 Posts: 32	Grades for jobs?? Tue Jan 29, 2008 01:40 AM It depend on which LLM your studying (ie Harvard B+ is still impressive, whereas BU B+ is not) and where your from (ie profile of your LLB, work experience, English fluency: US employers hate, and I do mean hate, foreigners with shitty accents). Assuming you know how to sell yourself, I have been told by many credible sources that it helps if: Your from common law country ie UK, Canada, Australia, HK (not India) with LLB from top Uni; Have relevant legal experience; SPEAK AMERICAN. While a B+ is not great, it certainly isn't shit. I would not rule yourself out! But you have to be proactive and NETWORK NETWORK NETWORK. That shit really works.
Profile P.M.	Quote
lion Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 40	Grades for jobs?? Tue Jan 29, 2008 08:58 AM Avonlady you have excluded india from us job market.any specific reasons.
Profile P.M.	Quote
avonlady Joined: 14 Jan 2008 Posts: 32	Grades for jobs?? Tue Jan 29, 2008 09:21 AM While India may have brownie points for being a common law country, its popularity in the eyes of US Partners are lower (way lower) compared to UK/AUs/Canada/NZ because: It's not native English speaking country (in the eyes of employers Indian LLBs are not considered part of the "King's Legal System"). Most Indian LLBs cannot speak perfect English (As I explained in another post, US lawyers are expected to be perfectly articulate and free of "Foreigness") Aus/UK legal principles (especially tax and corporate) are very similar to US, while there is a perception (whether justified or not) that Indian legal system has detracted from the old country. I'm not saying (nor advocating) that Indian LLbs are hopeless. I'm simply stating that a candidate from UK/Aus with similar profile to the Indian candidate with be viewed much more favourably. On the bright side, global law firms are increasingly recruiting Indian LLBs with corporate experience, but only for posts in 'exotic' locations (keep in mind you're not applying as experienced candidate but as graduate competing with JDs) Rest assured if you're an Indian LLB with LLM from Harvard with corporate law experience ie the "right stuff", the big firms will love you---- (just get the Foreigness out of you--- US WASPS hate that)--- but the Indian LLB will certainly not have too much advantage over LLBs with simliar profile in France and other civil law countries--- SUCH IS LIFE
Profile P.M.	Quote
Lambari não voa Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 10	Grades for jobs?? Tue Jan 29, 2008 08:26 PM Hello, avonlady!!! Do you also have any prejudice against Latin people, or only against Indian? SPEAK AMERICAN. I suppose you are a Native American... Do Native Americans speak English? I don't know what you mean when you say "shitty accents". I spent 1 month in NY and I don't believe that more than 20% of the people there speak without a foreign accent. In view of that, I suppose you are not talking about jobs in New York... The diversity makes this city great. Generally speaking, I think is that Law Firms and companies in US are against prejudice, not against accent. Take care and good lucky in your applications!!!
Profile P.M.	Quote
hannenyh Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 219	Grades for jobs?? Tue Jan 29, 2008 09:41 PM Haha, "SPEAK AMERICAN"? I think the language you are referring to is English. I'm sure you meant speak with an American English accent, but it sure sounded completely ridiculous. You probably make a valid point, but they way you are making it will offend people. Your posts make you seem mean, racist and ignorant. Sincerely, Happily employed non-native English speaker (with a degree not from Harvard)
Profile P.M.	Quote
Bender Joined: 17 Jan 2008 Posts: 84	Grades for jobs?? Wed Jan 30, 2008 01:49 AM I agree with each of the posters in this thread not named avonlady. In case your canned reply is to feebly raise the 'defence of truth' in protest, perhaps instead you could just jump right to explaining why it is that in the face of a patently terrible situation (i.e., bigoted wasps with power) you seem to take such a perverse pleasure in the status quo? You come across as proud of the fact that the red-white-and-bluebloods (Zing!) you fondly describe have drawn a line in the sand at the U.S. border. Where's the love, avonlady? [Edited 30 Jan 2008 by Bender]
Profile P.M.	Quote
avonlady Joined: 14 Jan 2008 Posts: 32	Grades for jobs?? Wed Jan 30, 2008 03:23 AM Dear Everyone Firstly, I not white, nor native English speaker, nor an Ivy League graduate, nor American for that matter. I come from a middle class family and in all likelihood, i'm in the same boat as most of yous. My above statements came from my experience in corporate law, speaking with US Lawyers, major international recruiting agencies and careers offices of major US law schools ETC. I don't like the fact that American Law firms are in general have a less than enthusiastic approach towards foreign lawyers. I doesn't serve me any more than you. IT SUCKS. But the fact remains that the practice of law is a jurisdictionally based profession. We're all educated lawyers on this forum, and whether we like to admitt it or not, the practice of law is the most conservative profession out there. I love diversity at work place (because it benefits my situation--since I aint white), but US Law firms don't really care all that much about it. They want the best of the best who can do the job right. and if that person is not white, american, JD etc than so be it, they'll still hire an LLM. But you have to be naieve to think that US Partners will sacrifice their standards just for the sake of diversity. Most top LLM graduates (Civil or Common background) will have great corporate (or other) legal experience, but the fact remains that most will not have common law legal experience. AND THAT'S WHAT THE LAW FIRMS ARE LOOKING FOR. Lawyers in UK/Aus/NZ/Canada/HK have the benefit of common law experience, because US Law firms recognise their corporate experience as common law oriented and accept their legal training as similar to US standards. As I stated earlier, Common law lawyers are in no way superior to civil law lawyers, nor is One countries top lawyers better than another. But the fact remains that YOU'RE LOOKING FOR A JOB IN COMMON LAW COUNTRY. One which prices JDs. not LLM for their practice. As such, IT WILL BE HARDERFOR YOU. There's a good reason why all top LLMs disclose the fact that it is hard for its graduates gain position in US--- because its true. I don't like it anymore than you, but that's just the market. If your preparing to apply for jobs in US post LLM and your from non common law countries, these are the barriers you'll have to overcome. SUCK IT UP! YOU'RE A LAWYER FOR CHRISTSAKES.
Profile P.M.	Quote
rafadavi Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 65	Grades for jobs?? Wed Jan 30, 2008 03:53 AM Avonlady, you're so right
Profile P.M.	Quote
hannenyh Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 219	Grades for jobs?? Wed Jan 30, 2008 04:48 AM While you may be right to a certain extent, I think you focus on the wrong things. The focus here really shouldn't be on color or nationality. It is all about what kind of education you got, where you got it, how you did, and what work experience you have. Of course you'll have to be fluent in English, but that just relates back to what kind of education you got, where you got it, how you did, and what kind of work experience you have. You see, it is all connected. And I think most people understand that connection without having to read your snide remarks. And being an LLM grad looking for a job in the U.S. is hard, cause there can only be so many jobs where the employer requires some kind of international understanding and work experience which JD grads don't have. Good luck to the OP with your job search. My best tip is networking!
Profile P.M.	Quote
avonlady Joined: 14 Jan 2008 Posts: 32	Grades for jobs?? Wed Jan 30, 2008 05:13 AM Exactly my point! That's why common lawyers have advantage- they have US recognised training and experience. My focus was never on race or nationality, its on your training background. Too bad you think my remarks are snide. I don't like sugar coating things. It's the advantage of blogs and on-line forums--- we can tell it like it is. And i told it like it is. Sorry if I offended your delicate sensibilities.
Profile P.M.	Quote
AJ Joined: 07 May 2005 Posts: 51	Grades for jobs?? Wed Jan 30, 2008 07:31 AM Hi Avonlady, Do you think one can make up for the lack of common law knowledge by passing a prominent US Bar? Would that make a civil lawyer or an indian lawyer(who you say is not a common lawyer in the right way) more acceptable to US Firms? After all, isn't one expected to know the As and Bs of US Law having passed the US bar. Cheers, AJ [Edited 30 Jan 2008 by AJ]
Profile P.M.	Quote
avonlady Joined: 14 Jan 2008 Posts: 32	Grades for jobs?? Wed Jan 30, 2008 08:57 AM That's a tough call, because while the NY Bar is very hard it is only the basic requirement of all lawyers. ie you won't be able to convince top-tier commercial law firms that your the 'right stuff' just because you're an admitted lawyer in NY (It certainly helps though). Passing the bar only shows that you've got the basics. Remeber your competing against JDs for top jobs. You need to show them you've got the commercial aptitude (assuming your going for commercial law), legal skills to work on par at the very top level with JDs. Indian lawyers are common law lawyers in the "right way". But compared to AUs/UK/NZ etc lawyers, their common law training and experience won't be valued as much. The key is showing that you're on par with top JDs, not you're good enough to practice.
Profile P.M.	Quote
hannenyh Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 219	Grades for jobs?? Wed Jan 30, 2008 01:14 PM Exactly my point! Sorry if I offended your delicate sensibilities. Hah, you think too highly of yourself. I just wanted to show you that the point can be made in a different way, more likely to be taken serious by most people who are well educated. To me your post came across as dumb, and I am not likely to trust dumb people. This is my final word, cause I gotta work :) Have a nice day!
Profile P.M.	Quote
blah Joined: 23 Feb 2008 Posts: 1	Grades for jobs?? Sun Feb 24, 2008 01:45 AM I have to say I agree with WakeForest. Avonlady obviously knows nothing about India. FYI: Many people in India and who grew up in India speak fluent English, as well as about 5 other languages, by the time they are 8 years old. As for Indian accents, seriously have you ever even been to a big city, such as New York or Miami? Many well educated people have accents. I know many people who have grown up in India and have been successful in their legal careers (who speak "American" as Avonlady likes to call it, or "English" as most people call it).
Profile P.M.	Quote
Gloss Joined: 13 Oct 2007 Posts: 50	Grades for jobs?? Mon Feb 25, 2008 06:13 AM I dont agree fully with the nationality or language comments made here and the comparison between JDs and LLMs is not accurate, because most of the foreign LLMs are employed in areas related to their countries and, therefore, having an accent or not being the red neck profile is not an issue for the law firm. Of course, you need to speak very good English, but this crazy discussion about accent is bullshit. [Edited 25 Feb 2008 by Gloss]
Profile P.M.	Quote

Reply to this post

Featured Programs

LLM Discussion Board

Grades for jobs??