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LL.M. Discussion Board > USA > LL.M. US job market is dead...

LL.M. US job market is dead...

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Greg_08 Joined: 19 Feb 2008 Posts: 38	LL.M. US job market is dead... Sun Mar 16, 2008 05:55 PM ... but it will not and I repeat will most defenetly not get you a job. At least not in the next 3-4 years. hehe --- I totally disagree. "knowing" the right people would definitely get you with a job (with or w/o LLM). Your argument is self contradictory. You agree with me that an LLM will not get you a job in the US. If you say that knowing the "right" people will get you a job regardless of an LLM you don't contradict what I'm saying... But it is funny though, Nice one:) [Edited by Greg_08 on 16 Mar 2008]
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dynamo Joined: 02 Jun 2007 Posts: 34	LL.M. US job market is dead... Sun Mar 16, 2008 06:09 PM Your argument is self contradictory. You agree with me that an LLM will not get you a job in the US. If you say that knowing the "right" people will get you a job regardless of an LLM you don't contradict what I'm saying... But it is funny though, Nice one:) I guess what I ment to say is that "knowing" the right people would probably help you get a job (regardless of the LLM). For the sake of argument let's us (all) hope that LLM would actually help in a way (even the slightest) to find a job.... :-) [Edited by dynamo on 16 Mar 2008]
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VA1993 Joined: 24 Dec 2006 Posts: 64	LL.M. US job market is dead... Sun Mar 16, 2008 06:37 PM Well though the recession might have hit the Big I-Banks and Financial accouting firms hard, the truth is- not much changes within a law firm. Dont jump the gun please! Per Amlaw- the legal job market has seen more 'movement' (≠ recession/ attrition) in the last 1 n 1/2 years than ever before in this decade. . Bad news first- Now from day 1, it has been easier for the Stanford IPs and NYU Tax globals to land a job in their relevant fields and not much has changed in that regard. The real hit is to be absorbed by many like me enrolling for a General LLM (irrespective of how you structure it), and hunting in the dark. Yes, it is tough, but its always been so! Plus, the age old truth- "if you're good enough, you will get a job" holds strong and most of us here seem to believe it. Good News- Much of the world seems to be moving away from the US and getting back home. There are great job opportunities all across asia and the middle east. I understand that europe and esp. the Uk are leading the P/E race (well ahead of US). So yes, while the American dream starts to look more gloomy, it is home where the action resides! (provided your LLM gets you a raise that can, at the minimum, cover your costs of the past 11 months) Since much of this picture is painted "word of mouth", let us stay positive bout doing al LLM. Besides, many of us ARE good enough to land a job anywhere...albeit the visas, non-existent language concerns, work ex, etc.. Almost forgot - the elections!
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mar Joined: 02 Mar 2008 Posts: 6	LL.M. US job market is dead... Mon Mar 17, 2008 02:14 AM I agree with some of you. This year it is very difficult for LLM's to get a job, however it is not impossible. I know several people (from Latin America) who have just gotten job offers with top NY law firms. The common traits among them are these: top 10 law school, they have worked in big law firms in their home country for about 2 to 4 years, they have great recommendations not only from partners of those law firms but also from big clients. They have corporate law experience and as I mentioned, they come from Latin America. I heard last year was the best for the LLM market, and even people who did not have the traits I mentioned, could land into great jobs. This year with the slow down in the economy, what matters is your previous job experience, the region you come from and the law school you chose for the LLM. Last but not least, persistance may also help you to find a job... [Edited by mar on 17 Mar 2008]
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michalmas Joined: 18 Mar 2008 Posts: 4	LL.M. US job market is dead... Wed Mar 19, 2008 09:12 PM Can anyone tell me why people really want to work in the US so badly ? I really do not see anyone would want so much to work in the US. Although I would understand why 4-5 years ago, there is really no apparent reason now : the US dollar is not worth much anymore (and there is nothing suggesting it will get better anytime soon, so that means your hard earned money is not worth much when you travel or go back home), the US economy is in a very bad shape, all the leading U.S. banks have reported major losses, people are losing their jobs and even law firms in NY are firing associates (Clifford Chance, Cadwalader, etc.). So why would anyone in their right mind want so desperately to work in NY (unless of course you are American and your family is in the US) ? If it is all about the money, again things are no longer what they were a few years ago. The highest you can hope to get in NY is 160k USD. Not bad at all, but you can get just as much, if not more, outside the US... I am British, I did an LLM in the US and I am now a first year associate in the U.K. and I get 185k USD (or 93k pounds) excluding annual bonus, which is far better than what I would have gotten had I accepted to stay in the U.S. Other of my former classmates who did not stay in the US are also earning more than they would have they stayed in the US, and do not regret their choice. So really why do people want to stay so much in the US ?
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bob808 Joined: 13 Mar 2008 Posts: 11	LL.M. US job market is dead... Wed Mar 19, 2008 09:45 PM the situation may be different if you're from the uk - but for llms from other countries where there are not many us firms, or the firms don't pay the same salaries - it would make sense for them to want to benefit from ny salaries. there's also a certain prestige attached to having ny experience in other countries. even if you're from the uk - it might still work out better to be in the us; cost of living is still lower in ny taxes are higher in the uk but i think you're right in saying that uk lawyers don't need to be that eager to work in the us given the large presence of us firms in london but i just dont think this would necessarily apply to lawyers from other countries.
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michalmas Joined: 18 Mar 2008 Posts: 4	LL.M. US job market is dead... Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:55 PM Yes, but right now, Asia and the Middle East are "very hot" and U.S. firms are hiring people there like crazy ! Some of my friends had terrific offers to work in Asia (Beijing, Hong Kong, etc.) or the Middle East (Dubai, Qatar, etc.) and I believe the cost of living and taxed there are much lower than in the U.S. !!! For Hong Kong for example, not only is his salary higher than NY, but on top of that, the firm pays for his accomodation ! And the cost of living and taxes are definitely lower than NY.... The same goes for Dubai or elsewhere in the Middle East.
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hannenyh Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 220	LL.M. US job market is dead... Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:03 AM Can anyone tell me why people really want to work in the US so badly ? The highest you can hope to get in NY is 160k USD. Not bad at all, but you can get just as much, if not more, outside the US... So really why do people want to stay so much in the US ? First of all, salaries in NY firms have changed - and I believe they now keep it at $220k to be competitive. Second of all, not all of us come from countries in which you can make even close to that kind of money with a big firm. For instance, I am from Norway where new associates in the "bigger" firms will get roughly $80k a year as a starting salary. Now take into consideration that Norway is considered one of the world's most expensive places to live and that we pay almost 50% tax, well then I see plenty of reasons for wanting to work in NY for a year or two after you finish your LLM. I guess we could all just apply to jobs in London... but that foggy weather would pretty much drive me crazy. --LLM grad on her way home after two years in the U.S. Btw, the legal market (meaning bigger law firms) in Norway (and maybe more of Europe?) is kind of dead too from what I hear. Firms are not too eager to commit to hiring anyone right now... they are awaiting the economic situation I guess. [Edited by hannenyh on 20 Mar 2008]
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michalmas Joined: 18 Mar 2008 Posts: 4	LL.M. US job market is dead... Thu Mar 20, 2008 01:29 PM > First of all, salaries in NY firms have changed - and I > believe they now keep it at $220k to be competitive. I do not know where you pulled that figure from, but all the websites (law.com, abovethelaw, etc.) all state that it is still 160k, and my colleagues/friends working in top NY firms (Cravath, Cleary, etc.) all confirmed to me it is still 160k. It looks like people want to work in NY more based on false rumours than real solid facts.
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hannenyh Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 220	LL.M. US job market is dead... Thu Mar 20, 2008 05:55 PM Well it doesn't really matter if it is $220 or $160, that wasn't really my point. $160 is still a hell of a lot more than I could ever make in Norway as an associate. I am sure this is the same for a lot of countries. I could even pay back my students loans way faster too. Which is very helpful for most of us. That gives me freedom in the future to take a job with less pay. Being from England/having a job in England sure is good for you, but most people on this board have not studied in England, and are not from there, so it is hard to compare... [Edited by hannenyh on 20 Mar 2008]
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mnementh Joined: 27 May 2007 Posts: 157	LL.M. US job market is dead... Thu Mar 20, 2008 07:40 PM Yes, but right now, Asia and the Middle East are "very hot" and U.S. firms are hiring people there like crazy ! Some of my friends had terrific offers to work in Asia (Beijing, Hong Kong, etc.) or the Middle East (Dubai, Qatar, etc.) and I believe the cost of living and taxed there are much lower than in the U.S. !!! For Hong Kong for example, not only is his salary higher than NY, but on top of that, the firm pays for his accomodation ! And the cost of living and taxes are definitely lower than NY.... The same goes for Dubai or elsewhere in the Middle East. But what does that mean really... can you be from one country and work in a different country ? Let's say X working in Hong Kong, and so on ? Or do you have to be Hong Kogian/Chinese? Or Qatarian/Arab and so on? Some come from countries where there are no such opportunies for high salary in their home country.
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Mr.Catra Joined: 10 Dec 2008 Posts: 8	LL.M. US job market is dead... Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:55 PM What about giving this thread a new perspective? 9 months after the last post...anything has changed? It is worse? What about 2010? I'm a foreign lawyer with a LLB from a BRIC country and will a attend to an LLM in Taxation? Should I even consider working in US? B4, maybe? Thanks!
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Irish_Guy Joined: 11 Sep 2008 Posts: 16	LL.M. US job market is dead... Thu Dec 11, 2008 05:30 PM Hey everyone, I just wanted to share my view on LL.M job-seeking. It's always been tough - just check out Penn's warning: www.law.upenn.edu/cpp/prospective/llm/ In this market, getting a US job with an LL.M alone is obviously tougher than ever. I want to emphasize, however, that if your goal is to get a job with a top US law firm, then you shouldn't be applying for an LL.M. The LL.M degree makes sense only if you want to return home after your study (some people get a year-long position with a NY firm, which is great, those these are hard to get and infrequently lead to longer-term positions). I got a Chicago LL.M and subsequently obtained a Stanford JD. You can't even imagine the difference when it comes to obtaining employment. As a JD student at a good law school, you have more offers coming your way than you know what to do with. If only that were true of the LL.M... I don't want to put anyone off the LL.M experience - it was fantastic. Just make sure you know what you're doing it for. Many good US schools offer a 2-year JD. If you want US law firm experience beyond a single year, then you should be focusing on the JD (the increased cost and greater selectivity of JD programs notwithstanding)
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crimlawyer Joined: 18 Nov 2008 Posts: 289	LL.M. US job market is dead... Thu Dec 11, 2008 05:37 PM Mr. Catra o fiel.
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franziskaner Joined: 11 Jun 2007 Posts: 81	LL.M. US job market is dead... Thu Dec 11, 2008 09:02 PM Olha a galera funkeira do Brasil causando no LL.M. guide ahahah... diretamente do Castelo das Pedras.. Furacão 2000 na parada. E US job market é o kct, meu nome é Zé Pequeno, p....! Mr. Catra o fiel.
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Mr.Catra Joined: 10 Dec 2008 Posts: 8	LL.M. US job market is dead... Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:47 PM I'm Sorry, my full name is Mr. Catravwski and I'm from Russia. Why are u guys speaking in portuguese? Does "Mr. Catra" means something bad in portuguese?
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Pharrell Joined: 02 Nov 2006 Posts: 120	LL.M. US job market is dead... Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:59 PM Cidade de Deus :) ...
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Pharrell Joined: 02 Nov 2006 Posts: 120	LL.M. US job market is dead... Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:26 AM Reply to Mr.Catra...look here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proibid%C3%A3o
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mauricel Joined: 05 Jun 2007 Posts: 73	LL.M. US job market is dead... Fri Dec 12, 2008 04:47 AM Hey everyone, I just wanted to share my view on LL.M job-seeking. It's always been tough - just check out Penn's warning: www.law.upenn.edu/cpp/prospective/llm/ In this market, getting a US job with an LL.M alone is obviously tougher than ever. I want to emphasize, however, that if your goal is to get a job with a top US law firm, then you shouldn't be applying for an LL.M. The LL.M degree makes sense only if you want to return home after your study (some people get a year-long position with a NY firm, which is great, those these are hard to get and infrequently lead to longer-term positions). I got a Chicago LL.M and subsequently obtained a Stanford JD. You can't even imagine the difference when it comes to obtaining employment. As a JD student at a good law school, you have more offers coming your way than you know what to do with. If only that were true of the LL.M... I don't want to put anyone off the LL.M experience - it was fantastic. Just make sure you know what you're doing it for. Many good US schools offer a 2-year JD. If you want US law firm experience beyond a single year, then you should be focusing on the JD (the increased cost and greater selectivity of JD programs notwithstanding) Thanks for your sharing Irish_Guy. What about if i got a LLM in a good CA law schools and then passed the CA bar exam, and if I'm looking for local / regional firms but not top int'l firms? And with Mandarin/ Cantonese capability? I think most of us here who wants to work at US have already got a JD/LLB-equivalent qualifications. Therefore, we do not hope or cannot invest two / three more years full time in US for study. That's why we choose the LLM-bar-exam route. What do you think if the above plans make sense in US market?
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Mr.Catra Joined: 10 Dec 2008 Posts: 8	LL.M. US job market is dead... Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:51 AM Ok, So I'd better change my alias to my given name, which is:CAPITÃO NASCIMENTO! - 02, pede pra sair!!!! Valeu galera!
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Pharrell Joined: 02 Nov 2006 Posts: 120	LL.M. US job market is dead... Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:57 PM You`re welcome. :) and good luck on the US job market....
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franziskaner Joined: 11 Jun 2007 Posts: 81	LL.M. US job market is dead... Fri Dec 12, 2008 05:22 PM Mr. Catra's official website (in Portuguese haha): www.catra.com.br/ As Cap. Nascimento would say: "Bota na conta do Papa." "Nunca serão!!!" "O senhor é um fanfarrão!" "Eu já falei que isso vai dar merda capitão." "Senta o dedo nesta porra." If the U.S. job market is not dead yet, Cap. Nascimento is going to kill it!!! He is tougher than Chuck Norris! For those 'gringos' who are completely lost, read "Cap. Nascimento" profile at www.imdb.com/title/tt0861739/ or en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropa_de_Elite : Brazilian movies rule! É nóis na favela, mano. Vc sai da favela, mas a favela não sai de você... Como dizem os manos do Capão Redondo e do Jd. Ângela: "o bagulho é doido, o processo é lento e o advogado é nóia"! Ok, So I'd better change my alias to my given name, which is:CAPITÃO NASCIMENTO! - 02, pede pra sair!!!! Valeu galera!
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BabyLucky Joined: 18 Dec 2008 Posts: 12	LL.M. US job market is dead... Fri Dec 19, 2008 06:26 PM I'm Sorry, my full name is Mr. Catravwski and I'm from Russia. Why are u guys speaking in portuguese? Does "Mr. Catra" means something bad in portuguese? hey, I am from Russia too. What school did you apply to? Can we chat a bit via PM or here?? I am so glad to find a Russian person here!
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BabyLucky Joined: 18 Dec 2008 Posts: 12	LL.M. US job market is dead... Fri Dec 19, 2008 06:40 PM Can anyone tell me why people really want to work in the US so badly ? I really do not understand that too :> I am planning on returnng to Russia after the LL.M... 160 or 220.. in the long-run, the salaries at Intl' companies or firms in the US and abroad will be almost the same (untill we talk about a person who dreams of positions 1 in the biggest and the most profitable law firms)... I think.
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IL2010 Joined: 26 Aug 2009 Posts: 1	LL.M. US job market is dead... Thu Aug 27, 2009 05:41 AM Hello all.. I am a LLM Student at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, and I just started my experience a month ago. First we had what is called LLM Advantage Class, which the idea is to prepare the international students to year that is to come. The classes started last Monday, 08/24, and I am expected to be graduating in May 2010. I have been reading some posts about the subject and I have to say about it is: Yes, finding a job being with a LLM Degree is being hard. I know a bunch of ex-LLM students who decided to get into the JD program because the situation has not being good for us. Second, with the LLM Degree we can only sit for the BAR in NY and California, and this last one don't give 100% assure that we will bet our license. The other 50 or something like that states, just allow us to take the BAR exam if we go into the JD Program. So yes, before coming here and spending about $60,000.00 in a year, make sure that you will be aware of everything. BUT, I am having such a wonderful time. Learning English, knowing people from all parts of the world, improving my English, and so on. I thing students should not only consider the idea of getting a job here in the US, but maybe come here, study for a year, learn, and why not, go back home and teach somebody else about this experience. It is a tough decision, so make sure of all of those thinks before you come.
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