http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408 en LL.M. US job market is dead... - LLM GUIDE Discussion Board Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:25:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42408 As you can read... given the crisis almost every Law Firm has closed positions. Compared to past years the percentage of foreign trained lawyers getting an offer is really, really small... You might want to rethink if coming to the US this year is worth the work... Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:39:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42411 are you currently a L.L.M student? ......who told you this? I really want to stay a year after my llm next year for an internship.....will this improve? Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:47:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42413 As you can read... given the crisis almost every Law Firm has closed positions. Compared to past years the percentage of foreign trained lawyers getting an offer is really, really small... You might want to rethink if coming to the US this year is worth the work... I am no expert but hopefully with the coming US elections...things would look brighter. beside, i believe that if you are "good" enough you will find a place eventually. :-) Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:51:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42414 I am finishing my JSD and can tell you that compared to other years the market sucks... top LL.M. students were unable to get offers... Things might change after elections (or not)... I just wanted everybody to know that every year that passes is harder to get offers... Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:49:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42420 Duh. But people from top foreign schools and good US LLM programs will still get jobs. It's people like me (sub T20 law school, good LLM) who are srewed. Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:57:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42422 As you can read... given the crisis almost every Law Firm has closed positions. Compared to past years the percentage of foreign trained lawyers getting an offer is really, really small... You might want to rethink if coming to the US this year is worth the work... Dead? Far from it As alive as its ever been? I would agree If you work hard, you can find a job that will keep you satisfied. Nobody I know is homeless at the moment with their LL.M degree Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:30:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42428 I am not speaking of T20 schools... I know a lot of people here in Chicago, Columbia, and ever HLS who are having trouble in getting offers. I am not speaking people with an LL.M. Degree but those who are obtaining it next May/June... It is sure you will get a job but not that sure you will get it in the US. I am not happy about this but it is just the truth... it is really hard Wed, 12 Mar 2008 22:04:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42430 Then you may be looking in the wrong spots Getting a job won't be "easy" but it is far, far from impossible even without the top grades I know several middle-level % LLM's finding jobs in Chicago, New Orleans, Dallas, Miami, and D.C. The market is slower but it is nowhere near "dead" or impossible within the US You just may need to start a little lower than you originally thought Wed, 12 Mar 2008 22:15:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42431 I totally agree with LinkedS since I have the same experience! Thu, 13 Mar 2008 06:58:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42451 Rej and LinkedS, I think LLM means additional degree plus a US studentlife experience alongwith enhanced prospects for future.... So I am not sure how low should I expect the offers to be for a new LLM grad in US. I would be really glad if someone can point out the difference. Thanks Thu, 13 Mar 2008 12:12:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42485 .. I just wanted everybody to know that every year that passes is harder to get offers... If every year is harder, then it's better to come next year than in 2-3-5 years, no ? Thu, 13 Mar 2008 22:41:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42605 Dear all I spoke to an alumn from my law school recently who just return from the US. He has been workning in the past 3 years as a corporate associate in a top US firm. He told me the work is drying up and most Aussie lawyers in the US are moving back, or going to other places like Asia, mid east. He said the storm is hitting most corporate practice areas such as PE, securitization & M&A. Litigation on the other hand has not been affected. He doesn't know if this will translate to a drop in graduate (LLM JD) recruitment, but as one suspects, JD hiring from top 10 probabily wont get affected, but LLMs and JD second teirs might get screwed......BOOOOOO..... Does anyone have thoughts on NON-Law Firm work? Banks, Consultancies? Or is everyone gunning for a top law firm job? Fri, 14 Mar 2008 21:33:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42702 Hey guys, The market is virtually dead; Rej is right! I just got my offer this week in an accounting firm, but the job search has been tough, and prospects are getting even dimmer. Yes, if your main reason for coming to the US is to get a US job after the LL.M., you might want to give it a second thought! Fri, 14 Mar 2008 23:34:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42710 I am so sorry to read all these disappointing posts regarding LLM graduates finding a job. For God's sake guys stop sounding so depressed and stressful. I had to stop reading in here for few months before finally having the courage to apply for LLM. Something that I owe so some well established academic people in America. – No where in the world finding a job is a piece of cake and definitely it is difficult in a high competitive markets such as in America, - I know English born , oxford PHD graduated who had to wait almost a year before finding a decent job- , for LLM degree it might be even tougher , So Whaaaaat? Let's be a little bit Positive and Supporting. I doubt it if anyone with 10 JDs from any league university who approaches to a subject relating to his education and career as negative as many people in here could ever land a job let alone a one year LLM program graduate! Sat, 15 Mar 2008 01:43:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42718 I am so sorry to read all these disappointing posts regarding LLM graduates finding a job. For God's sake guys stop sounding so depressed and stressful. I had to stop reading in here for few months before finally having the courage to apply for LLM. Something that I owe so some well established academic people in America. – No where in the world finding a job is a piece of cake and definitely it is difficult in a high competitive markets such as in America, - I know English born , oxford PHD graduated who had to wait almost a year before finding a decent job- , for LLM degree it might be even tougher , So Whaaaaat? Let's be a little bit Positive and Supporting. I doubt it if anyone with 10 JDs from any league university who approaches to a subject relating to his education and career as negative as many people in here could ever land a job let alone a one year LLM program graduate! So whaaaat? Well, Yasmin, I'll tell you so what. Not everyone has a year of their life, and $50,000, to waste on an investment which won't return dividends. Perhaps you're wandering through life aimlessly, piling up debt, or having daddy foot the bill for your bad investments, but others don't have this luxury. Sat, 15 Mar 2008 11:30:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42734 This thread is right on the money. I actually spoke to some friends of mine working in the states for top law firms (i.e. Cleary, Simpson etc) and everyone is saying the same thing: "The job market for LLM's is virtually non existent". They all say that admittedly getting a job with an LLM a few years back was hard, due to the fact that firms prefer to hire JD's unless they need a foreign attorney for a specific reason, but according to them, right now it's 0% prospects of finding a job with an LLM. I was told that the only LLM's getting jobs in the US are Stanford (Especially the IP LLM), and that even Harvard LLM's are struggling and not getting any offers. What I was told is that a JD from a top 15 school have 90% of finding a job, while LLM's have virtually no way to get hired (Visa problems, Language, only 1 year of US law school, mentality etc) unless it's the Stanford IP graduates. Anyways, I got in to 4 top 10 schools (NOT YLS AND NOT SLS) and I didn't get any funding, so for me 50K's for tuition and additional 25K for living cost is to much....I have no idea what to do:( Sat, 15 Mar 2008 12:31:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42738 So whaaaat? Well, Yasmin, I'll tell you so what. Not everyone has a year of their life, and $50,000, to waste on an investment which won't return dividends. Perhaps you're wandering through life aimlessly, piling up debt, or having daddy foot the bill for your bad investments, but others don't have this luxury. Hey baffronz , your evaluation of picturing me an aimless, blond head-daddy's girl wandering through life is so pointless, only because I expected the LLM public forum to be a little bit more positive. As I admitted before I have no doubt that we can not find a job within a week to pay for our tuition fee after a year but I do believe that it is Possible to Find a Job. Why should anyone expect that within a year of being in a foreign country their life should totally turn upside down for better? ofcourse it would be difficult and many expenses need to be covered for a period of time. However, this one year program can open few doors for better. I am not saying that you may have/know one, but there are successful stories that need to be said and heard in here as well. After all , I wish this forum could have been more informative and encouraging and would have let me know something about the bright side of a one year Post Graduate degree in America. Sun, 16 Mar 2008 05:11:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42791 yasmin, no one is saying the llm degre is worthless - it could still provide opportunities in international organisations / academia BUT if you want to work for a big law firm in corporate finance - it used to be possible (albeit really hard) to find a job with an llm. now wtih the recession the whole area has pretty much dried up, so firms dont need to hire more people since there's not that much work to do - so there's v. little need for llms things could change next year - but it's hard to tell... Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:52:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42808 I'll just add that there is no recession in the U.S. The situation is not good, but recession is an economic term, much like many legal terms, and there is simply no recession in the U.S. Maybe there will be very soon, but currently there isn't. Sun, 16 Mar 2008 13:02:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42810 It's a "snowball affect" at its finest. The USD$ is an slump because of the Sub-Prime interest rates on loans in the U.S, Everybody is waiting for recession to come next and in order to prepare for it start cutting back on expenses and hold all business activities for a while to see what happens next. This triggers a process called Stagflation - in layman terms it means a slowdown in the market, so basically it's a self proclaimed prophecy and because everyone is trying to prepare for recession they actually cause it. What it means for the legal market? The answer is simple: Cut-backs, Layoffs, No new recruitment and a general slow down in M&A and Corporate field. So if you are an LLM applicant, looking for higher education, LLM is an amazing experience and it will give a huge amount of knowledge and fulfillment, but it will not and I repeat will most defenetly not get you a job. At least not in the next 3-4 years. Best of luck Sun, 16 Mar 2008 13:48:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42814 Greg_08, I think you should study Economics/Business rather than Law per your excellent analysis... :) I think the U.S economy is something hard to predict though, and the finest brains in the world can't give a definite answers about it. Some believe the crisis will be over very soon. Some think it's a bigger issue. I believe we should remember that American companies rule in the entire globe, so if U.S is down, pretty soon all the economic regimes in the world will be down. If you can't find a job in M&A in the U.S because of this, pretty soon there won't be any markets for M&A in Europe, Asia either !! Greg_08, what are you planning to do? Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:01:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42816 Greg_08 I agree with your post. I spoke with a friend working in a big law firm who says the problem is dire as most law firms think that the Fed reserve cannot control the situation( interest rate cuts and pumping in liquidity to the market is not solving the crisis) Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:56:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42818 If Rej means "dead job market" for LL.M for securing a lucrative job in a big law firm with top of the line pay packet, he may be right. However, in general the job market is certainly "not dead". I have spoken with several attorneyes in New York, Phili and Florida; my feed back is that you are on your own the day you clear bar exam of any one State in USA; since one can legally stay in USA for one year after LL.M, the candidate is required to pass Bar Exam of any one of the States; once you are a licenced attorney, there is absolutely no dearth of work. A friend (LL.M from CWRU) told me that by working for one year post-LL.M, he was able to recover all the expense incurred on LL.M. Sun, 16 Mar 2008 15:12:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42823 Hey mnementh and kobayashimaru:) Thank you for the complements, I appreciate it. Regarding my background, I'm 26 y/o, Israeli, LLB & MBA from Hebrew University. I guess my plans will remain the same, just due to the fact that I don't perceive the LLM as a means to a job but as an education and experience. Another option would be to pursue a Doctoral studies and wait for a year to see what happens. Also, the election might change the situation, although I personally don't think it will. What about you guys, what are your plans? Sun, 16 Mar 2008 18:27:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42833 ... but it will not and I repeat will most defenetly not get you a job. At least not in the next 3-4 years. hehe --- I totally disagree. "knowing" the right people would definitely get you with a job (with or w/o LLM). Sun, 16 Mar 2008 18:55:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42835 ... but it will not and I repeat will most defenetly not get you a job. At least not in the next 3-4 years. hehe --- I totally disagree. "knowing" the right people would definitely get you with a job (with or w/o LLM). Your argument is self contradictory. You agree with me that an LLM will not get you a job in the US. If you say that knowing the "right" people will get you a job regardless of an LLM you don't contradict what I'm saying... But it is funny though, Nice one:) Sun, 16 Mar 2008 19:09:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42836 Your argument is self contradictory. You agree with me that an LLM will not get you a job in the US. If you say that knowing the "right" people will get you a job regardless of an LLM you don't contradict what I'm saying... But it is funny though, Nice one:) I guess what I ment to say is that "knowing" the right people would probably help you get a job (regardless of the LLM). For the sake of argument let's us (all) hope that LLM would actually help in a way (even the slightest) to find a job.... :-) Sun, 16 Mar 2008 19:37:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42841 Well though the recession might have hit the Big I-Banks and Financial accouting firms hard, the truth is- not much changes within a law firm. Dont jump the gun please! Per Amlaw- the legal job market has seen more 'movement' (≠ recession/ attrition) in the last 1 n 1/2 years than ever before in this decade. . Bad news first- Now from day 1, it has been easier for the Stanford IPs and NYU Tax globals to land a job in their relevant fields and not much has changed in that regard. The real hit is to be absorbed by many like me enrolling for a General LLM (irrespective of how you structure it), and hunting in the dark. Yes, it is tough, but its always been so! Plus, the age old truth- "if you're good enough, you will get a job" holds strong and most of us here seem to believe it. Good News- Much of the world seems to be moving away from the US and getting back home. There are great job opportunities all across asia and the middle east. I understand that europe and esp. the Uk are leading the P/E race (well ahead of US). So yes, while the American dream starts to look more gloomy, it is home where the action resides! (provided your LLM gets you a raise that can, at the minimum, cover your costs of the past 11 months) Since much of this picture is painted "word of mouth", let us stay positive bout doing al LLM. Besides, many of us ARE good enough to land a job anywhere...albeit the visas, non-existent language concerns, work ex, etc.. Almost forgot - the elections! Mon, 17 Mar 2008 03:14:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#42874 I agree with some of you. This year it is very difficult for LLM's to get a job, however it is not impossible. I know several people (from Latin America) who have just gotten job offers with top NY law firms. The common traits among them are these: top 10 law school, they have worked in big law firms in their home country for about 2 to 4 years, they have great recommendations not only from partners of those law firms but also from big clients. They have corporate law experience and as I mentioned, they come from Latin America. I heard last year was the best for the LLM market, and even people who did not have the traits I mentioned, could land into great jobs. This year with the slow down in the economy, what matters is your previous job experience, the region you come from and the law school you chose for the LLM. Last but not least, persistance may also help you to find a job... Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:12:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#43248 Can anyone tell me why people really want to work in the US so badly ? I really do not see anyone would want so much to work in the US. Although I would understand why 4-5 years ago, there is really no apparent reason now : the US dollar is not worth much anymore (and there is nothing suggesting it will get better anytime soon, so that means your hard earned money is not worth much when you travel or go back home), the US economy is in a very bad shape, all the leading U.S. banks have reported major losses, people are losing their jobs and even law firms in NY are firing associates (Clifford Chance, Cadwalader, etc.). So why would anyone in their right mind want so desperately to work in NY (unless of course you are American and your family is in the US) ? If it is all about the money, again things are no longer what they were a few years ago. The highest you can hope to get in NY is 160k USD. Not bad at all, but you can get just as much, if not more, outside the US... I am British, I did an LLM in the US and I am now a first year associate in the U.K. and I get 185k USD (or 93k pounds) excluding annual bonus, which is far better than what I would have gotten had I accepted to stay in the U.S. Other of my former classmates who did not stay in the US are also earning more than they would have they stayed in the US, and do not regret their choice. So really why do people want to stay so much in the US ? Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:45:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#43252 the situation may be different if you're from the uk - but for llms from other countries where there are not many us firms, or the firms don't pay the same salaries - it would make sense for them to want to benefit from ny salaries. there's also a certain prestige attached to having ny experience in other countries. even if you're from the uk - it might still work out better to be in the us; cost of living is still lower in ny taxes are higher in the uk but i think you're right in saying that uk lawyers don't need to be that eager to work in the us given the large presence of us firms in london but i just dont think this would necessarily apply to lawyers from other countries. Thu, 20 Mar 2008 00:55:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#43273 Yes, but right now, Asia and the Middle East are "very hot" and U.S. firms are hiring people there like crazy ! Some of my friends had terrific offers to work in Asia (Beijing, Hong Kong, etc.) or the Middle East (Dubai, Qatar, etc.) and I believe the cost of living and taxed there are much lower than in the U.S. !!! For Hong Kong for example, not only is his salary higher than NY, but on top of that, the firm pays for his accomodation ! And the cost of living and taxes are definitely lower than NY.... The same goes for Dubai or elsewhere in the Middle East. Thu, 20 Mar 2008 01:03:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#43276 Can anyone tell me why people really want to work in the US so badly ? The highest you can hope to get in NY is 160k USD. Not bad at all, but you can get just as much, if not more, outside the US... So really why do people want to stay so much in the US ? First of all, salaries in NY firms have changed - and I believe they now keep it at $220k to be competitive. Second of all, not all of us come from countries in which you can make even close to that kind of money with a big firm. For instance, I am from Norway where new associates in the "bigger" firms will get roughly $80k a year as a starting salary. Now take into consideration that Norway is considered one of the world's most expensive places to live and that we pay almost 50% tax, well then I see plenty of reasons for wanting to work in NY for a year or two after you finish your LLM. I guess we could all just apply to jobs in London... but that foggy weather would pretty much drive me crazy. --LLM grad on her way home after two years in the U.S. Btw, the legal market (meaning bigger law firms) in Norway (and maybe more of Europe?) is kind of dead too from what I hear. Firms are not too eager to commit to hiring anyone right now... they are awaiting the economic situation I guess. Thu, 20 Mar 2008 14:29:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#43343 > First of all, salaries in NY firms have changed - and I > believe they now keep it at $220k to be competitive. I do not know where you pulled that figure from, but all the websites (law.com, abovethelaw, etc.) all state that it is still 160k, and my colleagues/friends working in top NY firms (Cravath, Cleary, etc.) all confirmed to me it is still 160k. It looks like people want to work in NY more based on false rumours than real solid facts. Thu, 20 Mar 2008 18:55:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#43377 Well it doesn't really matter if it is $220 or $160, that wasn't really my point. $160 is still a hell of a lot more than I could ever make in Norway as an associate. I am sure this is the same for a lot of countries. I could even pay back my students loans way faster too. Which is very helpful for most of us. That gives me freedom in the future to take a job with less pay. Being from England/having a job in England sure is good for you, but most people on this board have not studied in England, and are not from there, so it is hard to compare... Thu, 20 Mar 2008 20:40:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42408/last#43396 Yes, but right now, Asia and the Middle East are "very hot" and U.S. firms are hiring people there like crazy ! Some of my friends had terrific offers to work in Asia (Beijing, Hong Kong, etc.) or the Middle East (Dubai, Qatar, etc.) and I believe the cost of living and taxed there are much lower than in the U.S. !!! For Hong Kong for example, not only is his salary higher than NY, but on top of that, the firm pays for his accomodation ! And the cost of living and taxes are definitely lower than NY.... The same goes for Dubai or elsewhere in the Middle East. But what does that mean really... can you be from one country and work in a different country ? Let's say X working in Hong Kong, and so on ? Or do you have to be Hong Kogian/Chinese? Or Qatarian/Arab and so on? Some come from countries where there are no such opportunies for high salary in their home country.