http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42554 en Value of the LLM - LLM GUIDE Discussion Board Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:10:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42554/last#42554 It seems to me that the LLM's value to a person's career really depends on how their CV looks beforehand. Firms also seem to place little emphasis on the LLM, evidenced by their reluctance to fund places - so would there still not be much difference in a firm's eyes between persons with the same quality of LLB degree and university despite one perhaps possessing an LLM? Obviously, employers are more likely to fund/hire people who have a first from Oxbridge or a redbrick than from a second division university. So my second question is this; hypothetically, would someone who had a first from a second division like Queen Mary who had an LLM at say, Harvard/Yale/Cambridge be able to compete successfully against someone who had a first from Oxbridge? Or a Russell group? All other things being equal. Thanks very much for your help. Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:42:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42554/last#42562 The LLM is an absolute non-necessity. A person with a 2:1 from Oxbridge/UCL/LSE/King's/Durham/Nottingham etc. gets a city firm job. The Oxford BCL/Cambridge LLM is seen as a ticket to the bar. The LLM is also useful to those planning a career in the academia(a ticket to a good doctoral program). Thu, 13 Mar 2008 16:12:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42554/last#42568 If one has LLB first class from Queen Mary London, I would think that he or she would get a firm job(and funding for lpc). Thu, 13 Mar 2008 18:37:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42554/last#42583 Sir William, I think you are right in the points you raise. I personally am having difficulty to secure a position, not because I have bad grades, but because my overseas university, although a very good school in my country, has no name in terms of international projection. I did the GDL, the LPC and now am looking for a position to train. I think in my circumstances for example an LLM in a good school in the UK will definitely confirm that my grades are from a good standard and will give the specialization in that specific area of the law. I wouldn't mind to teach at the same time that I am working as a solicitor. I am only considering schools such as Durham, UCL and possibly Queen Mary as I think below that, many of the city practices will not be interested. Thu, 13 Mar 2008 19:40:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42554/last#42588 And that's the main issue. Whether the LLM can put someone on par with, or beyond, someone from a better, (or more well-known) university. Competition is so incredibly fierce in the magic circle and top chambers, it is hardly worth pointing out. I study at UCL so, although it may not apply so strongly to me, I would consider an LLM to improve my career prospects and for another year of intellectual stimulation. Thanks to Sir William - I agree with your points - and pedrinus for posting. Thu, 13 Mar 2008 21:48:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42554/last#42598 Yes, I agree. An LLM for example in the States, in Berkeley, Univ Chicago, NYU, Columbia, would be something different and any person would be in a strong position to get a good job. If you are in UCL, just be worried in getting a high 2:1 or a first and you are almost guaranteed in the magic circle. Believe me because I have seen cases of people with a first from for example Kings, getting positions in top leading American firms in London earning 40,000 first year trainee salary. An LLM is worth if you do it in a top law school, either in the UK or the United States. If you do it in a lower ranked school, forget about it, unless you are overseas and intend to return to your home country to practice as in this case the LLM will be just for fun and to improve the English skills. Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:09:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42554/last#43246 If you have a 2:1 - it doesn't even have to be a high 2:1 - from a Top 10 uni, your place as a corporate gimp is almost guaranteed. As far as masters are concerned, most law firms will tell you that an LLM adds nothing at all to your CV here in the UK. The only two reasons I personally am doing a masters are a) I want to delay the start of working life for another year and b) where I come from, no-one has heard of UCL, whereas people have at least heard of Oxbridge, so, should I wish to return home, I may have slightly better academic credentials with an Oxbridge LLM/BCL. Emphasis on 'may'. Thu, 20 Mar 2008 01:32:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42554/last#43280 I think firms do like LLM graduates.. It depends where you have taken it. I do think it adds to your CV, but is my personal opinion though. Thu, 20 Mar 2008 05:12:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42554/last#43297 first, I disagree that an llm adds nothing to your cv. Even ageneral studies llm, If it is frm a top school, adds prrestiege and will open doors, without question. second, if it you specialize, it adds that much more to your cv and will certainly increase your marketability in that area. third, im not sure whether the posters above have actually tried woeking in major commercial law firms, but i can tell you, having myself done so for a couple of years, that it is a tremenously exhausting profession. some like, but most, as is evident from the attrition rates, don't. The numbers don't lie; nearly two thirds of big firm lawyers leave within a few years. and therein lies an additional benefit to the llm; if, after three years of working at one of these sweat shops you find yourself miserable, you'll be incredibly happy to have the llm on your cv as that will open doors to academia, nonprofits, policy, etc. Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:00:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42554/last#43307 That's correct. It's useful if you want to leave corporate law or if you want to leave England altogether. WTO/World Bank/UN etc. won't even look at you unless you have a post-grad degree. However, doing a masters in order to get a training contract after having failed to secure one during your first degree may not be the brightest idea. I remember someone asking a magic circle recruitment person whether an llm would enhance their chances of getting a tc, and she said, quite succintly, 'no'. She went on to say that you should do a masters if you really want to (perhaps in consideration of a carreer post law) but that it would not make you more attractive to City firms. Make of that what you will. Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:47:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42554/last#43313 Muppet, I do appreciate all your "observations". First my circumstances are different than any UK graduate as I don't have a law degree from England. My qualifications are not comparable and my university, although a very good school in my country, it is not recognizable in the UK, in terms of international projection. Secondly, I did not fail to obtain any training contract as I only started to apply now and have been interviewed in US firms in London. Thirdly, I am not interested in magic circle firms and finally the LLM is something very common among continental Europe and in the United States, and almost every graduate wants to undertake one. As much as you sound absolutely right with your considerations they do not apply to my circumstances, and I would study the LLM with or without training contract as that is just part of my qualification and it does not make a it lifetime goal. Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:27:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42554/last#43335 The topic raised here is very important. I think it all depends on where are you planning to practice. For example: in my home country the big multinational companies require for their senior jobs "an LLM from a recognized US or UK law school". On the other hand, law firms do not require LLM since, in their opinion, they value more a person who has spent a long time doing career in the firm than someone younger who’s had more education. Regarding working on the public sector, ironically, it can sometimes be a disadvantage. Since the LLM raises your "qualifications", some public entities assume that you are too "qualified" too "expensive" and thus, being on a limited budget, they won’t hire you! So, as you can see, in my home country, an LLM is not a “necessary” investment. I am currently working as associate a top US law firm (with offices in my country). I’m doing well, and at no time have I heard anyone say "you must do an LLM in order to succeed in this firm". But then again, I want to work abroad! And the only way to do that is through an LLM which will give me exposure, international recognition, networks and an international education (which is a must if you want to practice abroad). So my suggestion is, (i) if you are doing the LLM just because you want to improve your job possibilities, make an assessment of the country and sector in which you want to work and then decide if the LLM is right for you; (ii) if you are doing the LLM just because you are passionate on a certain subject and because it will provide you with an opportunity to travel and meet people, then: just do it! Best of lucks! Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:51:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42554/last#45853 What are your objectives? Within the profession academic credentials are only of interest at the entry level or for cocktail party boasting. Once you're employed only talent & hardwork count. There are two main routes to securing a quality position at the junior level - strong academics or meaningful experience & responsibility as a fully qualified practitioner in a small or second-tier firm.Once you're in practice LLB, LLM or PhD - it makes no difference.In practice being street smart, understanding how business works & being an excellent judge of people are essential. The reality is that someone from Brighton Poly will kick the arse of someone with Harvard PhD - it makes no odds. Sitting law exams has little relationship to legal practice. You will never know your level of talent (if any) as a lawyer until you have spent sometime in practice. To be a top practitioner you have to wiley, savvy & untrusting of fellow practitioners.Small firm experience where you cover every possible discipline from litigation to conveyancing is particularly helpful in making you the consumate legal all-rounder. Plenty of Magic Circle partners are nothing more than one-trick dogs;glorified clerks in a narrowly specialised field. I've come across a number of total turkey's who are partner's in the biggest firms in the City of London. It's a pity to see people waste their lives in a profession for which they patently have no natural talent or interest. Reality starts where the textbook ends. An LLM might get you to the starting line a little sooner - but it won't help you win the race. Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:36:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42554/last#45881 mostly agree with everything said above. in particular an llm does not increase ur chances of getting a mc job for a simple reason: the more u know the law, the worse, and the easier u get tired of those miserable jobs. of course u can earn good money, but life has more than that to offer, and there're other ways of earning good money. a friend who works for clifford c. once told me that in order to do ur job in an appropriate way u probably don't even need an llb!!! this is an exaggeration but it gives the idea. i trained with a small firm, where all the bollocks u study at italian universities finally come to have a sense. and that's the best training u can get, a small firm where every day they give u different tasks, where theory and practice finally meet. however doing an llm had always been something deep down i wanted to do and that was a fantastic year, far away from the misery of working life. and it inspired me on what to do next in life as well... Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:10:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42554/last#45907 What are your objectives? Within the profession academic credentials are only of interest at the entry level or for cocktail party boasting. Once you're employed only talent & hardwork count. There are two main routes to securing a quality position at the junior level - strong academics or meaningful experience & responsibility as a fully qualified practitioner in a small or second-tier firm.Once you're in practice LLB, LLM or PhD - it makes no difference.In practice being street smart, understanding how business works & being an excellent judge of people are essential. The reality is that someone from Brighton Poly will kick the arse of someone with Harvard PhD - it makes no odds. Sitting law exams has little relationship to legal practice. You will never know your level of talent (if any) as a lawyer until you have spent sometime in practice. To be a top practitioner you have to wiley, savvy & untrusting of fellow practitioners.Small firm experience where you cover every possible discipline from litigation to conveyancing is particularly helpful in making you the consumate legal all-rounder. Plenty of Magic Circle partners are nothing more than one-trick dogs;glorified clerks in a narrowly specialised field. I've come across a number of total turkey's who are partner's in the biggest firms in the City of London. It's a pity to see people waste their lives in a profession for which they patently have no natural talent or interest. Reality starts where the textbook ends. An LLM might get you to the starting line a little sooner - but it won't help you win the race. This is very true - although unfortunately in Britain - the top universities will always open the doors for people whether they are actually capable or not. Anyone who thinks an LLM is a passport to a City career will be sorely disappointed, but as someone says above an LLM will open other doors - especially for certain specialisations. Pursuing a specialised LLM or doctorate (and I don't mean some generic international/European business degree) this can make a person very marketable. Thu, 01 May 2008 18:44:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/42554/last#46693 would doing a masters in IP be good if you want to specialise in this area of law?