http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337 en Is a Harvard LLM worth it? - LLM GUIDE Discussion Board Sun, 24 Apr 2005 16:44:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4337 Dear All, I really do need some honest and well-founded advice and opinion here. I have to make a decision within the next few days, and it is really killing me. :-( I am from a developing country in Asia. I graduated with a first class honours LLB from University College London (UCL). I have accepted a job offer with one of the largest international law firms in London. This year I am completing the English LPC (something like the New York Bar) to prepare me for entry to my firm. Nevertheless, I would love to have one more year of intellectual stimulation in law, so I have decided to do a LLM first before starting work. My firm has agreed to let me defer for a year, but will not fund me because they consider it "unnecessary in view of my first class LLB from UCL" . I have been admitted to Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge to read for an LLM. Harvard has given me a 10K grant and a 20K special loan. I will have to raise another 27K myself. Now I will be honest and say that I am not rich - 27K and a further 20K special loan is a lot for me. My question now is this: is the Harvard LLM really worth it for me? I know it will be a great intellectual and cultural experience, because I have never been to the US before, and I have only savoured the American system of teaching once when we had an exchange professor from Columbia once. And Harvard is one of the best universities in the world. But I am asking from a strictly career perspective. Will the Harvard LLM really help me in my particular situation? I plan to work in banking and finance law in London for a few years before moving to Hong Kong (either working for a UK or US firm). Ultimately I should like to return to my home country to take up public service (eg. regulatory body or judicial service). I would really appreciate honest views from anyone, especially from people in a similar position. Does the Harvard LLM actually help in improving one's career prospects? Thank you very much. Sun, 24 Apr 2005 16:54:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4338 Hello, To be very honest with you, I am not sure that Harvard will bring you a lot, but it really depends upon a lot of factors: what is your current CV ? where are you from ? how is the market in your country ? which weigh do they give to LLM's in general ? Could if objectively be useful regarding your career in Asia. Usually, most practicionners tend to favour a solid working experience rather than a LLM. I guess you will learn more about the application of common law in a firm rather than the theoretical approach at a Law School. For instance, the partners of my firm (and the previous one as well) were fairly reluctant to see me leave for one year, stating that to write "LLM Harvard" or anywhere else would not add anyhting considering my CV. But I would like to become Professor and, on this market, Universities find it important if not necessary to go abroad, which is my reason for going to the US. If I only wanted to be a lawyer, I probably would never have been there. But all also depends upon you. A lot of people go there for the intellectual and human perspective to be in a "small world" for one year, which is understantable though luxury. Ask also yourself: would you regret not to go there ? You live only once. To go to Harvard surely won't cause you any damage :), but will it be useful for your career ? Not sure...the point then is to know if you only have to think about career when we do something... Just let me know in private if I can be of any help... Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:25:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4339 I work in an international law firm. A LPC graduate (afterwords, qualify as a solicitor admitted in England and Wales) is good enough for career as a lawyer. In my view, an LLM will not add much to development of your career as a lawyer., but a cost of energy, money and time.. If you like to study and like to have an US experience, that is another story. To be frank, most partners in my firm in HK are either qualified solicitors from England, HK or lawyers from US with JD degree. If I were you, I would try to qualify in England as the first priority rather than pursuing LLM Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:15:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4343 Dear Kazan In your case I would go for the LLM, but not in Harvard. I'd choose Oxford for the following reasons: - you will work many years afterwards - you should thus enjoy your LLM-year - it will not only be intellectually stimulating, but you'll also have a great time (partying, doing sports, etc.) - Harvard costs are ludicrously high - it's just ridiculous - moreover as a true European, I find it sad that you're investing in the US, instead of keeping the money here in EU - you will work your bud off in Harvard and not have half as good a time as you would in OX when it comes to well-being and well-feeling I hope this helps. Again, I think you should do the LLM, since otherwise you might regret not having done that in ten years - sooner or later you'll be wealthy anyway... with your potential... - so a year doesn't really matter in my opinion. Yet, I would not go to Harvard for the reasons mentioned above. Good luck in every sense - Maude Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:31:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4345 Spoken like a true enlightened European. Sun, 24 Apr 2005 21:00:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4350 I have a doctorate of laws and am a regular member of the recruitment panel of our organization. I was faced with the same dilemna many years ago since my family is not rich- I qualified for Harvard but needed a big loan to pay the tuition- a loan that would take almost ten years to pay. My advice : if you intend to engage in corporate or business law, an LLM from Harvard will open doors for you and you might be able to recoup your education loan in a few years if you get lucky with your first employer. You might not be as lucky in other fields. However, if it´s just the quality of academic instruction you are after, I would prefer Oxford, Stanford, UC Berkeley, Columbia University, Utrecht University, etc. I am part of the screening committee of a huge international financial institution. The schools I enumerated are just as good as Harvard and I find no difference in the written work or job performance between a graduate of Harvard and the 3 other schools. Besides, a good employer knows that not all the money in the world can buy intelligence and good character. Trust me, you´ll do just fine without Harvard and without the financial baggage of having to repay your educational loan :) I have seen so many graduates agonize over having to pay for their educational loans and not being able to have money for travel after graduation. It might interest you to know that not all high-earning lawyers who are tops in their field graduated from Harvard. The important thing is to graduate with honors - this is what you should strive for. There are many excellent law schools which are highly respected for certain orientations. For example, in international law - Oxford University and Utrecht University in Netherlands which have justices of the world court lecturing in front of you :) These guys didnt graduate from Harvard ! Many legal officers in the United Nations earn heaps of money, tax-free, without graduating from Harvard. Think about that. I wish you good luck in your career. Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:02:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4368 I feel for you bro... I also have the same kinda choice but it's between Cornell and a much lower-ranked school. You've got brilliant choices so anyways you'll be fine (I think) The last post (PB) was really instructive. I didn't know Utrecht was so highly ranked tho! Since I got my admission letter, I haven't even bothered to look at it again! ...but then, with me, it's always been about the money i.e. how much the school costs. Since I can't afford much, I need benevolent scholarships which we all know can be v.difficult to find... We must all make personal decisions based on the things we each consider most important to us... best of luck Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:36:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4373 P.S. Think of the prestigious Hague Academy of International Law in Netherlands. You cant argue with the prestige of that school. It teaches only international law. Mentioning The Hague in your CV will certainly impress any employer in the legal field. Does it rank in any of the university rankings ? Nope, it is too small. Is it prestigious ? Absolutely ! If you have judges of the International Court of Justice delivering lectures on procedural matters of public international law, you wont need Harvard and the financial burden that comes along with it. At any rate, what´s the difference between a graduate of UC Berkeley and Harvard, both with grade point averages of 3.9 ? JUST MONEY and many employers are not blinded by money :) In certain cultures for example, Germany and France, people are not obsessed with university rankings since university education here is so specialized. For example, Technische Universitat Munchen ( translated to Technical University Munich or the University of Technology, Munich) is very good with the sciences and is the best of all the TUs all over Germany. But you wont want to study law or social sciences there. The concept of elite universities are very American and British, but then most employers have taken postgraduate studies in Europe and here PEOPLE ARE JUDGED BY THEIR ACADEMIC HONORS and EXPERIENCE rather than being from this so and so elite school. Many employers were not born rich and majority of the people in the world cannot afford Harvard. That doesnt mean they are dumb or incompetent. THere are just too many other good universities other than Harvard. If you´ve got money to burn, go to Harvard. If you dont want the financial burden, go to another excellent university, try to graduate with honors and you´ll have no problem with job applications. I didnt go to Harvard but I´ve had no problems with any job application and earn very well even by law firm standards in the U.S. , so I´m speaking from good, solid experience :) Good luck ! Dont lose sleep over it. In all probability, the person who will interview you for your first job didnt come from Harvard himself. Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:38:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4399 Hi Kazam, I am in exactly the same shoes - except I have already done 4 years (including 2 year training contract) at a magic circle firm and am currently tossing up between the Harvard LLM or the Oxford BCL. Ideally - my first choice was to go to do the LLM at Yale but I am still on a waiting list for that and I have to choose between Harvard and Oxford soon before the offers lapse. I am currently minded to choose the Oxford BCL if Yale doesn't come through before the deadline. My reasons are as follows: 1. I want an academic experience out of my masters because I will be heading into the ivory towers of academia after my masters. The Harvard LLM I have been told (by a professor who has done both the H.LLM and the O.BCL) involves class sizes of around 200-300 students - you become a face in the crowd and need to employ significantly aggressive skills to get any face time with the professors/course conductors. 2. The course availability is very different to your actual ability to take a course i.e. its very difficult to get on the really juicy courses because everyone finds them juicy. On the flip side, 1. Have been told the Harvard library is the best (not just the biggest) in the world. 2. The JD students with which you take your classes are extremely bright and intelligent and you will meet a real diversity of people. To me, your expectations of a postgraduate experience are very very very subjective - why else would you have one person's third choice as another's first choice when it comes to institutions - I am very keen on the Yale LLM and yet there are some who having got the offer have turned it away - because they felt they would get more out of a course elsewhere - none of us are "right" or "wrong" - we just have our own subjective idea/expectations about what we want to do. Ask yourself what you want - a universal truth is that both the H.LLM and O.BCL won't meet up to these needs because both courses are so different - you will therefore find that you weed out the courses once you consider what your expectations are. Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:03:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4403 lops - fantastic post! Very wise. Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:56:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4548 Thanks for all your advice and comments. Very helpful indeed! Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:23:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4575 Dear Kazaf and all others who have posted to this thread: Go to Harvard! Ultimately, your choice will depend on many imponderables, but I would strongly encourage you to consider the Harvard option. Let me first disclose where I'm coming from, also in relation to some of the institutions that have been mentioned: I have a Harvard LLM as well as law degrees from the Sorbonne and Hamburg University, I attended the Hague Academy, I am European, I used to work in one New York and one European corporate law firm, and I intend to go into academia - and prepare for that in Harvard's doctorate program. Unfortunately I have never been to Oxford or Cambridge, so I cannot make the direct comparison from first hand experience, but I have many friends who studied there. On the financial side, it's clear that Harvard (or any other American law school, for that matter - I don't see why, e.g., Stanford would be any cheaper) will be more expensive than Oxford or Cambridge. But if you keep things in perspective, we are talking peanuts here! I know that even a subsidized loan of 20K (at nominal interest rates) plus a normal loan of 27K minus whatever you'd have to spend in Oxbridge (!) sounds big from a non-American student's perspective. But what's 47K minus X if your starting annual salary upon graduation is going to be 140K (New York standard)? Even if your London firm will pay less, it should still be enough to pay back the loan in the first two, three years. It's true of course, as was mentioned in one of the posts, that many American graduates are squashed by student loans - but they are talking a couple of hundreds of thousands of dollars, not just less than 47K (and they may be in lower-paying jobs than private practice of law: not a valid concern for you). If you are thinking economically (and only in terms of future earnings), you won't ask how much it costs, of course, but if it's worth it, i.e., if your future discounted extra earnings due to the Harvard LLM are worth 47K - X. I don't think anybody could give you a mathematically clear answer to that. At the same time, I think it is a non sequitur to point out that many UN officials, top lawyers, top bureaucrats etc do not have a Harvard degree, and that you can find good jobs without it. Of course you can. But you can't be certain, neither with nor without the Harvard degree. So the real question is: how much more likely are you to get that job (and, later, to move up the ladder) if you have the Harvard LLM? More precisely, how much more likely than with an LLM from Oxbridge? This question I cannot answer. But I can tell you that the name "Harvard" pulls a lot of weight, for the right or wrong reasons, and even more in Europe than in the US. (And as I indicate below, I believe there is reason to think that Harvard does not only give you the name.) I know of one highly respected international organization that has a special program for hiring only Harvard LLMs (again, I am not saying that this is either fair or correct). And if you are really thinking long term, the kind of money a smart and educated person is going to earn over your lifetime (and, correspondingly, the edge that a Harvard degree might (!) give you) is going to dwarf the 47K - X. Now, one caveat: the discounted value of your degree might be highest right after graduation. So in your personal situation if you are going to take the same old job after the LLM anyway, the discounted extra value of any LLM degree will be much less. Academically, the most important aspect has been absent from the discussion so far. Harvard, or any other premier American law school like Stanford or Yale, will teach you completely different stuff than Oxford or Cambridge. Of course Oxford and Cambridge are great schools reputed for their individual counseling. But you have already been through the English legal education, and Oxbridge (or the Hague Academy, for that matter) is going to give you just one more year of the same positivist-formalist education. By contrast, a premier American school will expose you to more normative and interdisciplinary ways of thinking about law, or thinking in the law: for example, you might learn finance while at Harvard (and that's just one of the "assets" that might translate into monetary value later). By the way, it is not true that there are 200 to 300 students in Harvard's classes. I believe this was the case for some classes in the past, but since they reformed the first year curriculum for JDs, the biggest classes at Harvard Law School have 100 students, and most are much much smaller. It is true that there is no institutionalized one-on-one interaction with faculty as in the Oxbridge tutoring system. But small seminars and classes, as well as paper supervision, will give you plenty opportunity to interact with faculty. By the way, it is also not true that you won't get the classes you want - while there is always a lot of haggling in the so-called add/drop period, in the end people usually get into all the classes they want, with some rare exceptions such as Laurence Tribe's Constitutional Law class. Also, Harvard brings in so many ICJ Justices etc as speakers or visiting professors over the year that you will certainly get your fair share of that. Last not least, the quality of Harvard's student body is so high that interaction with your fellow students might satisfy all your intellectual needs. From my personal experience with colleagues, friends etc., I know of no other school, except perhaps Yale, that can match the quality of Harvard's LLM student body. All said, I have not encountered any other institution in my life that could even hope to match the intellectual vibrancy of Harvard. (I am not saying that Harvard has no match - I have not been to, e.g., Yale, Stanford, or Oxbridge. But the my course at the Hague Academy, for example, was just a joke compared to the Harvard LL.M. year.) And as far as personal relationships are concerned, you are much more likely to find "your" type of people in Harvard's class of 150 than in a class of 20, while at the same time I found 150 to be a surprisingly manageable number of people, which allowed for a great spirit of community. Finally, who says you can't have fun (party) at Harvard? (As an aside, if you think that Oxbridge students always goof off and get drunk, what does this imply about your assumptions about the quality of education there?) If you measure "partying" by the amount of alcohol consumed and the number of hours of drunk dancing, Harvard was certainly not my biggest party year. But for great conversations, dinners, and movie nights with brilliant friends, it was fantastic. For me, my LLM year at Harvard was the best year of my life from the intellectual AND the personal point of view. Many felt the same. Others didn't. I guess we are back to the imponderables. I hope to see you in Cambridge in the fall. Holger Wed, 04 May 2005 02:45:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4744 Hi everybody! Brother, dont think , go to Harvard, because this is "Harvard" - at HLS you receive not only education but very high status. Dont think a lot, Harvard is a Harvard! Wed, 04 May 2005 15:14:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4758 I'm with Kem. Dont even think about it. The international brand of Harvard is unmatched. Academically, the faculty at Harvard as a whole is better known and more accomplished (thats relative of course). The Harvard alumni is widespread and influential and looks after its own. Wed, 04 May 2005 15:47:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4760 Kazaf, I note you would like advices "strictly from a career perspective". Many adviced you to go to Harvard because of its excellent education, reputation etc. Let me ask you, have you qualified in England and Wales? To be frank, I do not see how a Harvard LLM would help you in your career. I don't believe in this world there is any "Hogwoods" you can learn "magic". On the contrary, academic studies are very different from the practices in law firms. In addition, LLM is nothing worthy boasting of, no even harvard. My office turned down dozens of Ivy League LLMs every year. According to my observation, I do not see any competative advantage a LLM may have over a qualified English lawyer from a career perspective. Wed, 04 May 2005 19:14:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4771 Jsnchang, I have accepted a job with a Magic Circle firm in London. I will begin my two-year training contract there after my LLM. At the end of the two years, I will be qualified as an English solicitor. As for Harvard, I think I am slowly leaning towards it. I have spoken to a very diverse range of law firm partners, professors, bankers and government officials. The general advice seems to be that it will certainly open opportunities accross the globe to have a namecard which states 'LLB (First Class)(UCL), LLM (Harvard), Solicitor (England and Wales), New York Bar'. Thu, 05 May 2005 14:31:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4800 i have been in your position. so i can advise you. i turned down oxon and took harv. harv. llm offers better chances in helping you to get a job in US law firms, than an oxon bcl. that's quite well-founded. but oxon bcl is regarded, i believe, among magic circle firms, to be more intellectually rigorous than harv. llm. but "rigor" is quite an obscure term and hard to quantify. if you choose to go to harv, remember to take courses by duncan kennedy and david kennedy. they are brilliant and scintillating. the writings by oxon and cantab prof in the same fields seem quite pathetic by comparison. Thu, 05 May 2005 18:18:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4814 Let's face it, your first class LLB and admission to practise are all you need to pursue your career as a banking lawyer. After you start working, your success will depend on your achievements in the workplace - not on your education. The US firm that employs you in Hong Kong, for example, will be looking at your work experience first and foremost. On the other hand, the Harvard brand still has enormous cache here in the States and worldwide. Further, one shouldn't underestimate the value of gaining a better understanding of American culture by living in the States for a period. The "worth" of your Harvard LLM may be difficult to quantify, but I bet that you would never regret choosing to undertake it, even if it means short term financial pain. Speaking as someone who worked for a time in London and has studied here in the States - go for it. Sat, 07 May 2005 19:44:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4883 Wow! I think, Kazaf, you've inspired the most vibrant posts on this whole site! Unfortunately, I'm not in your dilemma but I would like to make a small contribution. Personally, when I face a situation such as this, I ask: 'would I, at the end of my life/career, etc (when things are more in perspective) regret that I didn't do this i.e. go to Harv.?' If the answer is positive, I just do it. The fact that it might not turn out to be as fundamental I thought is much better than chalkin it down on the list of 'the ones that got away'. Your heart wants to go to Harvard. So go. Whether it'll be fun/career boosting (like u need a career boost!)/intellectually stimulating, etc aren't really the things uppermost to you, are they? You have a dream come true waiting to be seized. Do so. Everyone on this post probably knows u won't need Harvard to open doors and make a success of this life professionally. U need Harvard just to satisfy the 'imponderable' within you. Think long and hard if you wish, but I'm sure u'll probably join the chorus of 150 come Fall this year at Cambridge, MA Cheers! Sun, 08 May 2005 02:52:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#4892 Hyugo, Thank you for your kind words and advice - that is very meaningful. I am extremely humbled and grateful for the kindness that has been shown by the people on this board who have replied with very helpful advice and comments. I am so glad I found this website! :-) Wed, 06 Jul 2005 09:55:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#6567 Nice discussion... Kazaf, did you decide to go to Harvard in the end? I did: Just for holidays though :-) Wed, 19 Jul 2006 20:39:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#19951 Hi there, I might be drifting away from the topic here, but not because i don't want to reply, but because, i myself need a bit of help here. I observed the sensible talk that the two of you were having, and thought that i might get some good advice for myself. I am doing my LLB from UCL (external degree) and waiting for my second year's result. I've heard that after u get your 2nd yr results, that is the right time to apply to universities. i need to know 2 things. Firstly; what is a better option after you're done with LLB... BAR or an LLM? What is the market like? what does it demand? LLM deg. holder or something else? And, if i do LPC, would it only help me if i decide to work in europe ? Because people tell me that , do your lpc, only if u want to live in europe.. but not if u want to come back to your country . (back to asia i;e) Secondly, what are my chances if i decide to change my track and go to USA after completing my LLB? Will i need to do JD, some bar exam or can i just straight away do my LLM? IS doinf LLM from usa after 3 extensive years of studying british law a good idea? Would it help me in my career? Or should i stick to UK , weigh my options and see whether i want to do LLM or become a barrister? I guess i seem pretty confused right now.. i would really like and appreciate some sincere advice and tips ! Waiting for a reply.... ! Thu, 27 Jul 2006 12:47:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#20184 Hi! If you need my advice, I think you should turn the LLMs down, because from a career perspective, you've got all that's need from you LLB. The knowledge of law is mostly refined through practice, and you can learn more from the excellent lawyers who have graduated from Harvard. Then, you will be learning some more valuable things: experience that come beyond H.LLM!! Good luck! Thu, 27 Jul 2006 17:48:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#20188 I am not going to Harvard but to Stanford for the SPILS/JSM program this year. I have been practicing law for 5.5years. I think this is another way to approach US LLMs, ie to pursue one after your career interests and perspectives have got more defined through several years of practice. I could have done an LLM right after law school, but chose not. I am glad of my choice because now, my master degree will make much more sense that it would have then. best of luck in finding your best path. Mon, 02 Oct 2006 21:08:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#21423 Hi all! First of all Kazaf, getting an offer from Harvard and Oxbridge makes u an extremely lucky person..i hope u do realise that...there thousands of students who are not even considered by these universities.. let alone a conditional or an unconditional offer...their applications are simply thrown in the dustbin...so getting all this panicky and jumpy won't get u any sympathy..if u got an offer then thank ur stars and stop throwing around tantarums! Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:56:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#21505 Jes like Max 123, stop being so bloody bitter! Certainly, Kazaf was very lucky to get an offer from both institutions, but I'm sure he appreciates that. Why then would you preclude him from raising valid concerns and seeking advice, which is partly the reason for the existence of this site. So whether you or anyone you know or whatever, did not get a consideration from these institutions does not entitle you to be down right bitchy to everyone else who was forunate enough to get those offers. Try be a little more productive next time, will you?! Wed, 07 Mar 2007 10:08:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#25986 first of all Kazaf is a she not a he...secondly i got an offer from cambridge but went to UCL...the absurdity of this situation is that she studied in UK and got a 1st and still doesn't know the difference between oxbridge and Harvard..and for your info out my law class of 30 four went to harvard, so I bloody well know the difference btw oxbridge and Harvard..and plz do try to be more civilised.. my reply was to Kazaf not to u..I don't know whether I touched ur achilles’ heel or what but I haven't used 'bitchy' language as yet, if I had u would't be on this forum for long Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:36:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#25990 I dont' take kindly to threats generally, but I'll let that slide. This is what you said: 'so getting all this panicky and jumpy won't get u any sympathy..if u got an offer then thank ur stars and stop throwing around tantarums!'. Now, yes, you were not making that statement to me, and if Kazaf is your friend and you were being sarcastic, then I apologise. However, if she (oh and thanks for that correction) is someone you do not know, I still believe your statements were unproductive and incredibly negative (how is that for civility) and to that end, as a member of this forum, I have a right to voice out my opinion. I don't want to fight with you dude, I just thought your statement was ill-conceived and inappropriate, likewise your current statement. Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:55:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#25991 I second lit - its ppl like max-whoever who bring bitterness to this forum which is otherwise very proactive and helpful Just ignore them Wed, 07 Mar 2007 13:13:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#25996 I second lit - its ppl like max-whoever who bring bitterness to this forum which is otherwise very proactive and helpful Just ignore them Amen to that:) Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:15:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#25998 One more amen in addition to Busingye's Wed, 07 Mar 2007 18:26:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#26006 I studied in the US at Columbia and think the Oxford BCL is a superior experience over any of the Ivy Leagues LL.M. simply because it is a graduate degree (unlike Harvard or Columbia where you get put in with the JD/LLB students) and it is more intellectually challenging (I have friends who have done both degrees - Harvard and BCL). All that being said, you can't beat the U.S. experience. It really is quite amazing to be able to study here and get exposed to American legal thinking and with a Harvard LL.M you will have a diversified CV and can get a job anywhere - the UK or the US. The starting salaries in the US are phenomenal so you would pay of your loan in no time. At the end of the day though I do think the Harvard LLM is more about the name than anything substantively better than other institutions so whether you choose to go there might be influenced by how much that matters to you. Congratulations though - what a great decision to have to make! Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:30:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#26011 err... I think Kazaf might hv made his/her decision a year ago though --- her post is actually from '06 -- but I agree what a great decision to have to make Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:08:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#26015 How funny! It is actually from April 2005. How on earth did it end up at the top of the list? I just noticed that Kazak hasn't replied so I doubt she is even reading all our posts. Very funny. Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:16:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#26016 it all started (re-started I should say) with max deciding to take on lit... but I think the whole episode has increased the longevity of the thread - its been brought back from the dead so to speak -- usually I think threads more than 2 yrs old on this site are removed by th LLM Guide management Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:08:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#26019 I hope to see you in Cambridge in the fall. Holger Cambridge, MA or Cambridge, UK? Thu, 08 Mar 2007 05:58:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#26050 Harvard is certainly not worth it. Harvard LLM is just cash cow. Harvard is overpriced charm school with good marketing. Harvard Law so big you get lost. Harvard not as good in job market as NYU and Columbia. Yueping say take Penn Law over Harvard anyday. Harvard sux0rs. Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:00:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#26818 Okay okay I withdraw my statements..u lot happy now..Kazaf, I think has done her LLM so there is no reason to prolong this thread..and Lit I apologise for the rude language. Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:36:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#26936 How in the world did you decide that I am a "she'? =) I am actually a guy - come on, "Kazaf" is about as "boyish" a name as it can get! And yes, I did choose Harvard in the end. Amazing experience - I would highly recommend it to anyone! Sat, 17 Mar 2007 05:14:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#26963 Kazaf - you are one of the legendary figures here! Sun, 18 Mar 2007 03:41:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#26988 Yueping say take Penn Law over Harvard anyday. Harvard sux0rs. Why are you so obsessed with me that you continuously bring my name up ? What did I possibly do to you ? Do you always hold grudges against people with different points of view or who disagree with you ? Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:50:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#26998 This thread, perpetuated over 3 years, is actually one of the most useful and enlightening ones on this site (notwithstanding the odd squabble that has broken out within it)... Kazaf's carrer plans from 2005 are only of academic interest now, but are very instructive. I am not sure what he ended up doing post LLM. I would be really surprised if he actually did come back to join the Magic Circle firm rather than switch to a NY firm. This is simply because Magic Circle firms pay peanuts by comparison. With his credentials, Kazaf could have walked into any elite Wall St firm, and I hope he did. But maybe he remained the loyal terrier of his Magic Circle employer.... Will we ever know?... Sun, 18 Mar 2007 23:00:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#27025 Yueping say take Penn Law over Harvard anyday. Harvard sux0rs. Why are you so obsessed with me that you continuously bring my name up ? What did I possibly do to you ? Do you always hold grudges against people with different points of view or who disagree with you ? Yup, he (aka YLS) did the same thing to me. I figure some people just have inferiority complexes and/or are bored so get their ego boosted by mocking others. It is strange because you would think if Harvard is so great they wouldn't feel the need to put down or ridicule other people who say how much they enjoyed their schools. One wonders if he is really as happy as he says he is up in Boston... Mon, 19 Mar 2007 05:00:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#27037 >One wonders if he is really as happy as he says he is up in >Boston... To me Josepidal seems quite happy. And is a very likable person, one of the nicest and smartest around. We're classmates, so that's no hearsay :) By the way I disagree with Josepidal as to the power of Harvard LL.M. at the job market. Some of us are having quite a hard time. My feeling is that employment opportunities depend more on your pre-LL.M. background (nationality, education and experience) than just on the name of the school. As to the percentage - it's hard to count: some people want to go back, some would eventually stay for a year or two, some really want to make their career in the US. My guess is that 40 - 60% of the LL.M. get into NY top law firms. Does it equal to the 100% of these who "really wanted" the job? I doubt. People tend to rationalize their choices - if having no offers from NY one accepts an offer from London and herself starts to think "who wants NY, I always wanted to work in Europe". I think that neither "no matter who you are, Harvard LL.M. diploma gets the NY 160K job for you" nor "if you're not UK LLB grad with significant experience, Harvard LL.M. is worthless" is true. I am sure that Harvard opens opportunities I would never have even though I was quite successful and say - innovative lawyer back in my country. This "my country" sounds like if I was Borat's compatriot, which is quite close :) Harvard is great but I am sure (I really mean it) that other schools can give great satisfaction and opportunities (I have a friend who does really well in Brussels after LL.M. at GW - with no pre-LL.M. experience landed in a prestigious firm, and have another friend with Harvard diploma and great pre-LL.M. credentials who went back to our little town in Eastern Europe and is doing not that well). My advice is that you should follow your common sense but first - go for your dreams. If you doubtful as to the LL.M. - try JD, but make things moving. Because if you're reading these discussions - you're not 100% happy with your domestic education and career :) All the best to waiting & admitted applicants! m. PS. Kazaf - I remember reading your posts when I was applying - it was very impressed by your courage and success. Mon, 19 Mar 2007 06:51:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#27042 michalPL, whoever you are, go post in the "Employability" thread. :P Ouch, a taste of my own medicine. You really have to read the original josepidal-ivan2006-yueping comments; the original context was pooh-poohing yueping for putting down UChicago! Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:09:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#27091 Man, I am from Brazil and I am jealous of your situation, but at same time, I congratulate you for that. If I were in your position, and I believe you want a "short" and "direct" answer, I would go to Harvard without even thinking. You would get a foreign experience in the most respectable school in the world, in general. Go to Harvard and forget the rest! Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:20:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#27094 And you know something? You might get out of Harvard and not be succesfull which I doubt, but at least you will have Harvard stamped on it. If you ask the great majority of people logged in this website, probably 90% would go to Harvard, according to what I have read before. But there are great schools also, its just that I think you would fit on Harvard, and if you keep reading too many opinions on this site you will think too much... Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:33:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#27112 michalPL, whoever you are, go post in the "Employability" thread. :P Ouch, a taste of my own medicine. You really have to read the original josepidal-ivan2006-yueping comments; the original context was pooh-poohing yueping for putting down UChicago! Jose, that girl hit you below the belt... :-P Will there be a second round?... No grudges against Yueping - as Josepidal said, yueping was known in this forum by writing posts that revealed a rare talent for confrontation. You may like his "punching" style or not, but I think he is incredbly entretaining and a real myth in this forum. Josepidal probably agrees with that, and that´s the reason he endears so much yueping. And yes, the "yueping affair" started with a UChicago x Upenn discussion. Tue, 20 Mar 2007 04:32:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#27194 By the way I disagree with Josepidal as to the power of Harvard LL.M. at the job market. Some of us are having quite a hard time. My feeling is that employment opportunities depend more on your pre-LL.M. background (nationality, education and experience) than just on the name of the school. As to the percentage - it's hard to count: some people want to go back, some would eventually stay for a year or two, some really want to make their career in the US. My guess is that 40 - 60% of the LL.M. get into NY top law firms. Does it equal to the 100% of these who "really wanted" the job? I doubt. People tend to rationalize their choices - if having no offers from NY one accepts an offer from London and herself starts to think "who wants NY, I always wanted to work in Europe". I think that neither "no matter who you are, Harvard LL.M. diploma gets the NY 160K job for you" nor "if you're not UK LLB grad with significant experience, Harvard LL.M. is worthless" is true. I am sure that Harvard opens opportunities I would never have even though I was quite successful and say - innovative lawyer back in my country. This "my country" sounds like if I was Borat's compatriot, which is quite close :) Harvard is great but I am sure (I really mean it) that other schools can give great satisfaction and opportunities (I have a friend who does really well in Brussels after LL.M. at GW - with no pre-LL.M. experience landed in a prestigious firm, and have another friend with Harvard diploma and great pre-LL.M. credentials who went back to our little town in Eastern Europe and is doing not that well). My advice is that you should follow your common sense but first - go for your dreams. If you doubtful as to the LL.M. - try JD, but make things moving. Because if you're reading these discussions - you're not 100% happy with your domestic education and career :) Thanks for sharing with us some precious bit of info. It is certainly good that some persons set the record straignt and do not mislead people with PR propaganda making applicants believe everything is pink and rosy at certain schools, only to have these applications have a shock and a disappointment once they are not able to get that 160k job despite being in the school with "guaranteed 100% success rate". I also believe that employment opportunities is strongly based on your pre-LLM background, and that the name of the school is secondary. What is odd is that they seem to be obsessed with yueping and constantly drag his name in the mud at every occasion. Tue, 26 Jun 2007 18:34:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#33118 Thanks for sharing with us some precious bit of info. It is certainly good that some persons set the record straignt and do not mislead people with PR propaganda making applicants believe everything is pink and rosy at certain schools, only to have these applications have a shock and a disappointment once they are not able to get that 160k job despite being in the school with "guaranteed 100% success rate". Just to clarify: I do think that Harvard is a better school (if not the best school) - also on the job market. My impression is that Harvard's impact is very strong in the US law firm market and even stronger in Europe & Asia. If you have two similar resumes (and believe me - we all have them impressive but similar), Harvard weights a lot more than other top schools. Still it does not guarantee a position in NY. Best luck with your careers! Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:31:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#43522 any new thoughts on the subject?? perhaps some harvard llm graduates can share their experience. Merci!! Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:54:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#50337 Wow so much of insight into whether Harvard or oxford. What a lucky choice to have :D ill sell my soul to be selected at Harvard (Prospective buyers please note!) Thanks everybody it was a great read! Sun, 07 Sep 2008 05:20:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#50402 It really depends on you career goals. If you will be frequently exposed to American companies and US laws, then it's wise to take a year learning the essentials at a US law school, a Harvard at that. If not, it's probably not necessary. As far as prestige goes, the program accepted you is Harvard LLM, not Harvard JD. There's a world of difference. They really don't ring the same in the legal profession. I'd go out on a limb that pretty much everyone accepted at a Harvard LLM program wouldn't have been given offers in its JD program. A 170 on the LSAT is not a score you can get just by studying hard. Sun, 07 Sep 2008 11:51:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#50407 Does any one know what is taken into account if a student from Glasgow Law School applies to NYU, Berkeley, Harvard Law, with a First Class honours, and a year abroad in Hong Kong, an plenty of extra curricular activities? Any comments welcome, also feedback from Glasgow alumni Cheers Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:35:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#54794 i know this thread is finished, but i just have to say the obvious: harvard. why? OP only plans to qualify in England and then more or less immediately move to HK, and even then only wants to practice for a few years before moving on to something that is less of a grind. W a Harvard LLM and a job already locked up w a magic circle firm (pls previous legal training in the common law tradition) it is impossible that this person would not get a job at a vault-10 firm in NYC. Two years at said vault firm versus two years on a trainee contract in London would pay approx 150K more, plus he would be much better positioned to make the desired move over to HK at the end of these two years. Plus, you can always qualify in England later by effectively waiving in. Wonder why yr employer didnt want to pay for yr Harvard degree, huh? Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:06:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#54795 Wonder why yr employer didnt want to pay for yr Harvard degree, huh? Good point. But don't law firms usually make contracts that force you to return after finishing your studies? Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:59:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#54803 Good point. But don't law firms usually make contracts that force you to return after finishing your studies? :) and how would they possibly do that? Perhaps kidnapping your family and blackmailing you? Seriously, letting jokes aside, I'm curious to learn how. Please enlighten me if you have heard of anyone who had entered such a contract. bernese, you have resuscitated one of the most insightful threads in this forum. I think that although long time has passed since Kazaf has posted his question, the dilemmas raised in here are still crucial -and even more so, after the credit crunch. I am not sure that Kazaf would have still chosen Harvard with the drastic reduction in job prospects in the last year or so... I would like to raise a correlated question: if you were accepted at Harvard as well as at a law school which offers great teaching (not necessarily a specialized program) in the field where you want to practice after your LLM, which one would you choose? Say, for example, you are accepted at St. Louis University and you'd like to practice Health Care law (St Louis ranks 1st in this area), Georgetown and you'd like to work on WTO stuff, Berkeley for IP law, Vermont for environmental law, NYU tax...and so forth. Would you choose the brand reputation and the unique academic atmosphere of Cambridge, or the possibility to get the highly sectorial preparation offered by the other law school? I guess the answer differs depending on what one wishes to do afterwards (e.g. go back to his/her country or not, work for a law firm in the US or not, work for a multinational or a big corporation or the government/an international organization,etc. etc.), but it would be definitely interesting to share our views on this subject. I believe this question has never been raised before. Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:09:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#54804 Nail, the debate we are raging in other threads has been going on for so long. Just shows that exceptional views are not in such a great minority. Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:24:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#54808 Good point. But don't law firms usually make contracts that force you to return after finishing your studies? :) and how would they possibly do that? Perhaps kidnapping your family and blackmailing you? I think there are ways to do that. That's what I read on another board: "My firm basically pays for the LLM tuition and other related expenses. However, if you leave the firm within 3 years after you receive a credit, you must pay them back. I am not sure whether you need to pay back if you get fired or not." > taxtalent.com/forum/message.cfm?m=2191&CAT=general&beginshow=3661 Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:34:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#54811 I know! But that's what I like about this website...:) I think I already know what you think, you seem to consider HLS brand reputation mainly a marketing thing while suggesting that the focus should be more on one's individual (especially professional) experience. This is an endless debate, but I believe we would all gain from having a confrontation on this issue. I can tell u for experience -and you probably already know- that despite the crucial importance of professional achievements, the title of LLM would make you leap substantially forward in the marketplace. And I am tempted to say that an LLM at Harvard, Yale and Stanford would weigh much more than the others, precisely for the kind of doors they open up. Nonetheless, this is far from saying that I would choose one of those programs if I already knew that I'd lke to practice in a particular area, and I had the opportunity to be taught by the most knowledgeable people in that area in another school. Hence in the example above I would opt for the lower ranked school. But my aim is more at academia/policy-making, I guess the conclusions would differ for people with other objectives. Again, I'd like to see what other people think. Cheers, Nail Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:39:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#54816 Elbing, that seems just wonderful! Basically a subsidized loan with no interest...Basically you have three years to earn your money at a US law firm...in addition, your job secured in case you don't find any! Where can I sign this contract? :) Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:33:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#69832 people can we initiate the discussion again.. harvard llm v. oxford bcl? which one is better? Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:43:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#69835 At least in my country, everyone who gets into for harvard gets into oxford, but the opposite is not true. There is also a certain prestige to harvard that makes it a lot more sought after than oxford. Nonetheless, from my discussions with graduates from both, I do think BCL is a tad bit more rigorous. If forced to choose, I'd say Harvard but just because the assumption in my country is that unless you are an academic, you went to do the BCL because you failed to get into harvard (or yale). That may or may not apply in other places though. Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:31:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#69845 ,, Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:42:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#69853 My humble opinion: The right answer in my opinion is that both are not comparable. In Oxford you will be educated in an incredible way, but oriented very academically. You will study UK and European law, not that much US law. Harvard will be (a lot) more practical and knowledge of US law might provide a bigger advantage for practising lawyers in big firms. Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:35:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#72247 it's unbelieveble !, how comes, that people graduated with honors(maybe/probably because UCL is a crap) can be so stupid ? the dude ask the question and reply it himself !!! everyone knows that a LLM is useless except if you want to learn english and especially in the law field. IF your firm told you that it's unnecessary, why do you keep asking ? further , a corporate LLm is undoubtedly useless regarding your future which is to go back in your country and working somehow for the government. LLM= degree for stupid foreigners who think they have chance to work in US with this kind of degree. everybody in my law firm was graduated from(LLM from class 1982-untill now) Harvard. they identicaly replied me : "LLM ? Rubbish" Of course, if you re not fluent like me, maybe is it worthin otherwise go back to work "chinese camarad" is there any doubt about the fact that work experience is more valuable than all degrees in the world ? Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:40:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#72248 Hi everybody! Brother, dont think , go to Harvard, because this is "Harvard" - at HLS you receive not only education but very high status. Dont think a lot, Harvard is a Harvard! man, congrats, you got the degree(summa cum laude) of the most stupid post ! Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:41:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#72249 I agree with some points in your post, but not all. An LLM can be a valuable asset. I can only speak for my own situation, but as a student from continental Europe an LLM from the US will help a great deal in finding top jobs in biglaw in my country. Recruiters see the foreign experience, the fluency in English and knowledge of common law/US law as a great asset. Of course you have to be realistic and not pursue an LLM with as only motivation to find a job in the US, with the current economic climate especially. Fri, 12 Jun 2009 22:01:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#72250 yes but the dude has as outlooks to go back to china to work for his government ! so tell me the relevancy of a Corporate LLm ? why ? because it's Harvard ? If i were planning to become a professionnal soccer player, is a Ph.D from MIT in economics essential for me ? I have doubts about that... Fri, 12 Jun 2009 22:09:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#72251 Yeah well reading some questions and opinions in this forum I've got the same opinion ^_^ Sat, 13 Jun 2009 10:02:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#72257 W2S: Will people please stop resurrecting 4 year old threads? I'm tempted to say, since the Chinese government itself is more or less the #1 international Chinese corporation, it actually makes a lot of sense to study corporate law in the US if you want to work for the Chinese government. I agree Harvard (both LL.M and JD) is overrated, you don't get a much better education there than you would at other law schools. There's a huge gap between the rational value of Harvard compared to other law schools and its actual/perceived value. Since, like it or not, the perception of others is the only thing that matters to find a job, that name is worth a lot. Harvard happens to be the only law school that all people heard of abroad, and that's largely due to pop culture and movies, not rational law related data. With a Harvard LL.M on your resume, you can basically throw around your application in any country and get -at least- an interview just for this. Something even Yale and Stanford can't achieve in most countries. And lastly, a few statistics for the sceptics: - almost all professors in top 14 US law schools who do not hold a US JD have a top 14 LL.M, Harvard's professor Bebchuk (University of Tel-Aviv) probably being the most notable example. - almost all new hires (after 2000) in European offices of US law firms have a US LL.M (both of these statements can be easily verified by browsing the faculty and lawyers bios on their respective websites) Sat, 13 Jun 2009 11:58:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#72259 W2S: Will people please stop resurrecting 4 year old threads? I'm tempted to say, since the Chinese government itself is more or less the #1 international Chinese corporation, it actually makes a lot of sense to study corporate law in the US if you want to work for the Chinese government. I agree Harvard (both LL.M and JD) is overrated, you don't get a much better education there than you would at other law schools. There's a huge gap between the rational value of Harvard compared to other law schools and its actual/perceived value. Since, like it or not, the perception of others is the only thing that matters to find a job, that name is worth a lot. Harvard happens to be the only law school that all people heard of abroad, and that's largely due to pop culture and movies, not rational law related data. With a Harvard LL.M on your resume, you can basically throw around your application in any country and get -at least- an interview just for this. Something even Yale and Stanford can't achieve in most countries. And lastly, a few statistics for the sceptics: - almost all professors in top 14 US law schools who do not hold a US JD have a top 14 LL.M, Harvard's professor Bebchuk (University of Tel-Aviv) probably being the most notable example. - almost all new hires (after 2000) in European offices of US law firms have a US LL.M (both of these statements can be easily verified by browsing the faculty and lawyers bios on their respective websites) funny, you ask to stop resurrecting old threads but in the meantime, you take part to reply, lolll. I wrote a huge text to show why i don't agree with you but LLM GUIDE disconnect me so 'M boring to write it again... Sat, 13 Jun 2009 12:29:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#72260 There's a difference between replying to a thread that's already in 1st position on page 1, and actually bringing back to page 1 a thread that hasn't been replied to since April. Anyways, obviously discussing with you will benefit neither of us. We often read here and there that the LL.M is useless. I was merely trying to offer prospective students a different point of view. Sat, 13 Jun 2009 12:51:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#72261 I replied to this thread because it's barely credible to see how people supposed to be "out of the box" can be so "in the box" when they ask stupid questions. I am chosen by Harvard, Yale , Columbia ,NYU and Stanford. do I feel the need to launch a thread to show off under the pretext i have some doubts about my future and the need of a LLM degree? Absolutely not. to say the truth, I think that this kind of people are to be pitied. ps: and if he was sincerely in his threas, He'll not add some extra elements ( like graduated with honours ), don't be worried, if you re chosen by Harvard and oxford, we re quite sure that you re in the top 5 of your law school promotion. Further, if there is an unsaid rule which say " forbidden to resurrecting post" please show me it or explain me it. sorry to be bothering you Sat, 13 Jun 2009 13:12:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/4337/last#72262 - I don't disagree with everything you said, only with "LL.M = useless". - We don't know whether the OP was really admitted or whether he was merely trying to "troll" (get people to debate and waste time on fictional stuff just for his own amusement). - Even if he was admitted, no matter how cautious the admission committee was, they can't filter out all insecure kids who feel the need to showoff. - You can of course reply to any thread you want, I was just expressing a wish: since the question was asked in 2005, by now he probably doesn't visit these boards anymore and if he does we must be offering a good laugh indeed. And I honestly doubt the information contained within this thread is useful to anyone (with all due respect to the contributors, and yes this includes my own replies to this thread).