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Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)

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capa


Joined: 10 Oct 2005
Posts: 164
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Mon Jul 28, 2008 03:20 AM
Hi everyone,

I just won a scholarship, and I need some opinions.

If you had to nominate five law schools for a scholarship, which would you select? There must be a maximum of two from one country. I am avoiding US law schools due to the cost of tuition (average of US$40,000), so I would appreciate the best law schools in the world, excluding US law schools.

I would go for:
1. Oxford - UK
2. Cambridge - UK
3. McGill - Canada
4. UBC - Canada
5. Trinity College, Dublin - Ireland

#1 and # 2 are obvious, but would you agree with #3, #4 and #5?

Thank you.
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Paddy Nolan

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 20
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:34 PM
Oh Canada! I'm not sure either McGill or UBC deserve to be on this list (especially ahead of the University of Toronto, which truly is one of the world's top law schools)... unless of course we're talking lifestyle, in which case both schools would fare pretty well.
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invictus88

Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 43
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Tue Jul 29, 2008 05:30 AM
For what it's worth, you may want to consider this ranking, although this is not law-specific:

www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/re…
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bankerlaw


Joined: 08 Jun 2008
Posts: 8
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Wed Jul 30, 2008 02:07 AM
It depends on your interest. For example in Banking and Finance Law, ILF (Frankfurt) is one of the best; or in Mineral Law could be Dundee University (Scotland).

Itīs difficult to rank, but in general terms and reputation, I would say (excluding american and british schools):

1.- Toronto (Canada)
2.- Mc Gill (Canada)
3.- Instituto de Empresa (Spain)
4.- Institute for Law and Finance - ILF (Germany)
5.- Leiden University (The Netherlands)

Thatīs my personnal point of view.

Good luck
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lawmann

Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 11
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Thu Jul 31, 2008 09:02 PM
For Canada, I would consider the Osgoode Hall Law School.

For UK, I would consider the University of Edinburgh too other than Oxbridge. No point applying to the others. Just my opinion.

Not Dublin. I would rather consider one of the rated European Law Schools.

As a general rule, by selecting the national law School, you cannot go wrong.
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Paddy Nolan

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 20
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:05 PM
Osgoode Hall shouldn't be allowed anywhere near this list. Many wouldn't count it in the top 5 in Canada, let alone the world (ex US). Large, impersonal and utterly lacking in resources for its LLM students (I'm speaking of their academic LLM - they also offer a "professional" LLM). Also suffers from occupying the single most godforsaken piece of real estate in Canada... and that's no small honour.



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kideast

Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 3
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Fri Aug 01, 2008 06:43 AM
agreed.. osgoode hall is solely running on its name.. churning out heaps of grads each year..
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cowboyblues

Joined: 18 Dec 2005
Posts: 73
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:03 PM
If we are talking *purely* about the best law schools for LLMs here, I would be inclined to place UCL, KCL and LSE ahead of Oxbridge because they offer far greater speciality for the legal practitioner. However, if we are talking law schools in general then Oxbridge must come top for the UK.

As for Canada, I would say McGill or UT. Although I do know two lawyers who studied for the Osgoode 'Professional LLM' and found it very good. Generally, I wouldn't promote Canadian uni's as a great place for LLM programs. I'm yet to see a really impressive one. This is illustrated by the fact many Canadian lawyers opt to study for their LLMs at US or British law schools.

I never heard of Trinity College, Dublin being great for LLM programs either.

Other non-US top law schools that spring to my mind:
- Leiden
- Leuven
- Bologna


As someone else has said above, how you rank law schools for LLMs ultimately depends on what speciality you are looking at studying.

[Edited 01 Aug 2008 by cowboyblues]
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Paddy Nolan

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 20
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:49 PM
Ya, I gotta disagree with Cowboy on this one. UofT is one of the world's top law schools, period. It also has a world class LLM program. Not only does the Faculty boast numerous internationally recognized scholars, a great academic atmosphere and active/diverse student body, but the way the LLM program is run is completely first class.

As an aside Cowboy, the stats would suggest that most candidates from most countries undertake their LLMs in countries other than those from which they originate. Also, and while I have no stats on this one, I think you will find Canadians who go to the U.S./U.K. are going to Oxbridge, Harvard, etc. As a result, I would suggest your assertion that the migration of Canadian LLM students abroad illustrates the deficiency of domestic LLM programs is highly suspect.

I think UofT is a great school... but you'll still find me at Oxford come the fall.

Cheers.
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cowboyblues

Joined: 18 Dec 2005
Posts: 73
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Fri Aug 01, 2008 03:32 PM
Paddy, UT is a great law school - undeniably up there with other top international schools, and I'm certainly not bashing it. In fact, I was considering applying for the UT JD only the other year.

However, I am not convinced that LLM programs in Canada are world-leading, particularly as they are bereft of certain specialities. Ironically, it was a UT professor that confirmed my opinion, as well as the opinions of number of fellow Canadian classmates who I had the pleasure to study with when the UoL intercollegiate LLM was still alive and well.

Indeed, Canadians are found studying in Oxbridge, but if you venture to London or 'up north' during you time in England, you'll also find Canadians frequenting the UoL colleges and red-brick universities in the UK, such as, Manchester.

Good luck at Oxford.

Edit: on another note, I would interested to hear more about Osgoode's reputation (or lack of, that is talked about above). I have a good friend who considering the part-time LLM while studying for bar exams.

[Edited 01 Aug 2008 by cowboyblues]
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Paddy Nolan

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 20
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Fri Aug 01, 2008 04:59 PM
Hey Cowboy,

Osgoode Hall occupies a strange position. Its faculty is good, its students are good and - at least in Canada - it provides its students with good career prospects. Its general problem in my view is twofold. First, as I already mentioned, it is a singularly oppressive place to study, physically and geographically speaking. Anyone who has ever gotten off that bus after a 75 minute commute from civilization only to find themselves in a concrete wasteland in the middle of a Canadian winter knows what I mean. Second, it is inferior to UofT (Toronto's other law school) in almost every conceivable category. As a result, subject to acceptance of course, I just can't see why anyone would choose Osgoode over UofT for either the JD or LLM.

As far as the LLM goes, I think its appropriate to distinguish between the academic (i.e. general) and "professional" LLM. The academic LLM falls into the category of lacklustre Canadian programs which, I agree (other than UofT), are generally not world-leading. The professional LLM, at least from speaking with my friends and colleagues who have enrolled in it, is perhaps something of a different story. First, its supposedly very practice-oriented (which, depending on your perspective can be a very good thing or a very bad thing). In an event, if one's goal is to further specialize in a specific area, it may prove useful. Second, its apparently not bad from a networking perspective.

Cheers.
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randomfella

Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 15
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Fri Aug 01, 2008 06:21 PM
The LL.M program at the College of Europe, Bruges is conspicuously absent from the above discussion. This is likely the best LL.M for European law anywhere. I'd think it belongs in the list of the top 5 non-US programs
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justme

Joined: 19 Dec 2007
Posts: 13
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:28 PM
I share this view. I chose the College of Europe over Oxford [and Chicago]. And the choice was not money driven.

I think the College of Europe has the best programme in general EU Law and EU Competition Law.
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randomfella

Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 15
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Sat Aug 02, 2008 03:07 PM
Out of curiosity, why did you pick the College of Europe over Chicago? I'm sure Bruges is the place to specialize in the particulars of EC competition law doctrine, but I'd have thought to learn advanced antitrust & economics, Chicago would be the spot. Obviously, technical econ drives US more than European law, though I'd assume as time goes on Europe will evolve closer to the law & econ model.

Did you enjoy Bruges?
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cowboyblues

Joined: 18 Dec 2005
Posts: 73
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Sat Aug 02, 2008 03:43 PM
Thanks for this info, Paddy. Certainly, the Osgoode Hall portrayed on the uni website doesn't exactly reflect the reality of its Keele Campus location. In terms of design, it reminds me a lot of British 1960s 'glass plate' universities (aka concrete jungles). I was told by one friend that the 'Professional LLM' is taught at a different location in rented offices somewhere in downtown Toronto, rather than the normal campus location (I don't know if this is still the case). Looking at the website now, it seems they are marketing it as a distance learning course also.


Hey Cowboy,

Osgoode Hall occupies a strange position. Its faculty is good, its students are good and - at least in Canada - it provides its students with good career prospects. Its general problem in my view is twofold. First, as I already mentioned, it is a singularly oppressive place to study, physically and geographically speaking. Anyone who has ever gotten off that bus after a 75 minute commute from civilization only to find themselves in a concrete wasteland in the middle of a Canadian winter knows what I mean. Second, it is inferior to UofT (Toronto's other law school) in almost every conceivable category. As a result, subject to acceptance of course, I just can't see why anyone would choose Osgoode over UofT for either the JD or LLM.

As far as the LLM goes, I think its appropriate to distinguish between the academic (i.e. general) and "professional" LLM. The academic LLM falls into the category of lacklustre Canadian programs which, I agree (other than UofT), are generally not world-leading. The professional LLM, at least from speaking with my friends and colleagues who have enrolled in it, is perhaps something of a different story. First, its supposedly very practice-oriented (which, depending on your perspective can be a very good thing or a very bad thing). In an event, if one's goal is to further specialize in a specific area, it may prove useful. Second, its apparently not bad from a networking perspective.

Cheers.
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justme

Joined: 19 Dec 2007
Posts: 13
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Sat Aug 02, 2008 07:47 PM
Well I still have to start in Bruges. But my choice took me about two months of research and surveys. I think it is a pretty well made choice. Regarding my preference over Chicago, I think it is better to know first EC competition law, and almost for sure in the future I will think again of Chicago, but only after having gained a fairly broad experience. Learning EC Competition law in the US looked like a nonsense to me.
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randomfella

Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 15
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Sat Aug 02, 2008 08:04 PM
I think that makes a lot of sense. In fact, I know someone who did an LL.M at Bruges and then 2 or 3 years later in Chicago. That would certainly seem like the right order. In any event, if you're interested in learning the actual doctrine of EC competition law (as opposed to the underlying econ), then you're right to focus on Europe.

Good luck at the College of Europe - I'm sure you'll get a lot out of it!
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Shaun13

Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 4
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:28 AM
What about the University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg? The law school has a great reputation for LLM's. agree/disagree?
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Int'nat_lawyer

Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 2
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Tue Aug 19, 2008 02:39 PM
I would definitely have the university of sydney and the university of melbourne on there. They are both highly reputable for law. Also, universities such as the national university of singapore and university of hong kong have very renowned law schools.
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Bush

Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 27
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:21 AM
You may want to consider this ranking. It's not specified for law, but for social science which consumes law:

www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/hybrid.asp?typeCode…
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Paddy Nolan

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 20
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Fri Aug 22, 2008 01:32 PM
Hi Bush,

While it is certainly arguable that law is a social science, the THES methodology actually does not include law for the purposes of the social science rankings.

Cheers,
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Bush

Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 27
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Sat Aug 23, 2008 07:39 PM
Hi Paddy Nolan,

Please give me a reference to support that statement, I can't find one on either the THE or the QS websites.

On the contrary, this link seems to imply that law is taken into consideration (bottom under "programs"): www.topuniversities.com/gradschool/schools/data/sc…

[Edited 23 Aug 2008 by Bush]
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Paddy Nolan

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 20
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Sun Aug 24, 2008 02:47 AM
Hi Bush,

The link is to a list of social science programs at LSE, not the THES methodology. Notably, the "methodology" section in the THES social science ranking does not mention law. Add to this fact that (1) several of the schools in the ranking don't even have law programs, and (2) the social science rankings do not match up with the THES law rankings, and the picture should start to become a little clearer.

In any event, and regardless of whether law is in fact included, the confluence of these factors would seem to suggest that the THES social science rankings are a very poor proxy for a global law ranking.

Cheers,

Dan
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chazb

Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 3
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Thu Aug 28, 2008 06:35 PM
Cowboy,

Osgoode's professional LLM program is in fact taught downtown, at the professional development facility near Yonge/Dundas. The Keele Campus is in fact quite ugly and far from any good part of the city, but that's not really the best criteria by which to choose a grad school anyway, is it?

With regards to Paddy Nolan's comments, I would have to disagree. I chose Osgoode over U of T and I've never regretted it. I had friends who went to U of T and complained about professors who were accomplished Academics but terrible teachers and who had no time for students. My professors were bright, interesting and always available to chat. I feel like I got a great education and met wonderful people. I think U of T-ers tend to confuse an expensive education with a quality education.
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Paddy Nolan

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 20
Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US)
Thu Aug 28, 2008 06:55 PM
For those who might be new to the UofT v. Osgoode debate, chazb has competently provided the standard knee-jerk argument in favour of Osgoode. I fully acknowledge (in fact, I do acknowledge above) that Osgoode's students and faculty are good. I also concede that UofT has some poor teachers (as all law schools do) and that the some law students may indeed prefer Osgoode to UofT. None of this, however, detracts from the reality that UofT is in many, many ways a far better school - especially for LLMs.

Finally, as for the tiresome argument that UofT students are somehow blinded into thinking an expensive education is necessarily a good one... yawn. When are you guys going to check this ridiculous notion at the door already? It makes you look petty and detracts from your argument.
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