http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459 en Opinions needed: best 5 law schools in the world (excluding US) - LLM GUIDE Discussion Board Mon, 28 Jul 2008 05:20:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#49459 Hi everyone, I just won a scholarship, and I need some opinions. If you had to nominate five law schools for a scholarship, which would you select? There must be a maximum of two from one country. I am avoiding US law schools due to the cost of tuition (average of US$40,000), so I would appreciate the best law schools in the world, excluding US law schools. I would go for: 1. Oxford - UK 2. Cambridge - UK 3. McGill - Canada 4. UBC - Canada 5. Trinity College, Dublin - Ireland #1 and # 2 are obvious, but would you agree with #3, #4 and #5? Thank you. Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:34:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#49469 Oh Canada! I'm not sure either McGill or UBC deserve to be on this list (especially ahead of the University of Toronto, which truly is one of the world's top law schools)... unless of course we're talking lifestyle, in which case both schools would fare pretty well. Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:30:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#49494 For what it's worth, you may want to consider this ranking, although this is not law-specific: http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2007/overall_rankings/top_100_universities/ Wed, 30 Jul 2008 04:07:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#49512 It depends on your interest. For example in Banking and Finance Law, ILF (Frankfurt) is one of the best; or in Mineral Law could be Dundee University (Scotland). Itīs difficult to rank, but in general terms and reputation, I would say (excluding american and british schools): 1.- Toronto (Canada) 2.- Mc Gill (Canada) 3.- Instituto de Empresa (Spain) 4.- Institute for Law and Finance - ILF (Germany) 5.- Leiden University (The Netherlands) Thatīs my personnal point of view. Good luck Thu, 31 Jul 2008 23:02:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#49567 For Canada, I would consider the Osgoode Hall Law School. For UK, I would consider the University of Edinburgh too other than Oxbridge. No point applying to the others. Just my opinion. Not Dublin. I would rather consider one of the rated European Law Schools. As a general rule, by selecting the national law School, you cannot go wrong. Fri, 01 Aug 2008 00:05:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#49568 Osgoode Hall shouldn't be allowed anywhere near this list. Many wouldn't count it in the top 5 in Canada, let alone the world (ex US). Large, impersonal and utterly lacking in resources for its LLM students (I'm speaking of their academic LLM - they also offer a "professional" LLM). Also suffers from occupying the single most godforsaken piece of real estate in Canada... and that's no small honour. Fri, 01 Aug 2008 08:43:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#49576 agreed.. osgoode hall is solely running on its name.. churning out heaps of grads each year.. Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:03:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#49584 If we are talking *purely* about the best law schools for LLMs here, I would be inclined to place UCL, KCL and LSE ahead of Oxbridge because they offer far greater speciality for the legal practitioner. However, if we are talking law schools in general then Oxbridge must come top for the UK. As for Canada, I would say McGill or UT. Although I do know two lawyers who studied for the Osgoode 'Professional LLM' and found it very good. Generally, I wouldn't promote Canadian uni's as a great place for LLM programs. I'm yet to see a really impressive one. This is illustrated by the fact many Canadian lawyers opt to study for their LLMs at US or British law schools. I never heard of Trinity College, Dublin being great for LLM programs either. Other non-US top law schools that spring to my mind: - Leiden - Leuven - Bologna As someone else has said above, how you rank law schools for LLMs ultimately depends on what speciality you are looking at studying. Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:49:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#49586 Ya, I gotta disagree with Cowboy on this one. UofT is one of the world's top law schools, period. It also has a world class LLM program. Not only does the Faculty boast numerous internationally recognized scholars, a great academic atmosphere and active/diverse student body, but the way the LLM program is run is completely first class. As an aside Cowboy, the stats would suggest that most candidates from most countries undertake their LLMs in countries other than those from which they originate. Also, and while I have no stats on this one, I think you will find Canadians who go to the U.S./U.K. are going to Oxbridge, Harvard, etc. As a result, I would suggest your assertion that the migration of Canadian LLM students abroad illustrates the deficiency of domestic LLM programs is highly suspect. I think UofT is a great school... but you'll still find me at Oxford come the fall. Cheers. Fri, 01 Aug 2008 17:32:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#49589 Paddy, UT is a great law school - undeniably up there with other top international schools, and I'm certainly not bashing it. In fact, I was considering applying for the UT JD only the other year. However, I am not convinced that LLM programs in Canada are world-leading, particularly as they are bereft of certain specialities. Ironically, it was a UT professor that confirmed my opinion, as well as the opinions of number of fellow Canadian classmates who I had the pleasure to study with when the UoL intercollegiate LLM was still alive and well. Indeed, Canadians are found studying in Oxbridge, but if you venture to London or 'up north' during you time in England, you'll also find Canadians frequenting the UoL colleges and red-brick universities in the UK, such as, Manchester. Good luck at Oxford. Edit: on another note, I would interested to hear more about Osgoode's reputation (or lack of, that is talked about above). I have a good friend who considering the part-time LLM while studying for bar exams. Fri, 01 Aug 2008 18:59:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#49591 Hey Cowboy, Osgoode Hall occupies a strange position. Its faculty is good, its students are good and - at least in Canada - it provides its students with good career prospects. Its general problem in my view is twofold. First, as I already mentioned, it is a singularly oppressive place to study, physically and geographically speaking. Anyone who has ever gotten off that bus after a 75 minute commute from civilization only to find themselves in a concrete wasteland in the middle of a Canadian winter knows what I mean. Second, it is inferior to UofT (Toronto's other law school) in almost every conceivable category. As a result, subject to acceptance of course, I just can't see why anyone would choose Osgoode over UofT for either the JD or LLM. As far as the LLM goes, I think its appropriate to distinguish between the academic (i.e. general) and "professional" LLM. The academic LLM falls into the category of lacklustre Canadian programs which, I agree (other than UofT), are generally not world-leading. The professional LLM, at least from speaking with my friends and colleagues who have enrolled in it, is perhaps something of a different story. First, its supposedly very practice-oriented (which, depending on your perspective can be a very good thing or a very bad thing). In an event, if one's goal is to further specialize in a specific area, it may prove useful. Second, its apparently not bad from a networking perspective. Cheers. Fri, 01 Aug 2008 20:21:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#49595 The LL.M program at the College of Europe, Bruges is conspicuously absent from the above discussion. This is likely the best LL.M for European law anywhere. I'd think it belongs in the list of the top 5 non-US programs Sat, 02 Aug 2008 00:28:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#49600 I share this view. I chose the College of Europe over Oxford [and Chicago]. And the choice was not money driven. I think the College of Europe has the best programme in general EU Law and EU Competition Law. Sat, 02 Aug 2008 17:07:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#49628 Out of curiosity, why did you pick the College of Europe over Chicago? I'm sure Bruges is the place to specialize in the particulars of EC competition law doctrine, but I'd have thought to learn advanced antitrust & economics, Chicago would be the spot. Obviously, technical econ drives US more than European law, though I'd assume as time goes on Europe will evolve closer to the law & econ model. Did you enjoy Bruges? Sat, 02 Aug 2008 17:43:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#49629 Thanks for this info, Paddy. Certainly, the Osgoode Hall portrayed on the uni website doesn't exactly reflect the reality of its Keele Campus location. In terms of design, it reminds me a lot of British 1960s 'glass plate' universities (aka concrete jungles). I was told by one friend that the 'Professional LLM' is taught at a different location in rented offices somewhere in downtown Toronto, rather than the normal campus location (I don't know if this is still the case). Looking at the website now, it seems they are marketing it as a distance learning course also. Hey Cowboy, Osgoode Hall occupies a strange position. Its faculty is good, its students are good and - at least in Canada - it provides its students with good career prospects. Its general problem in my view is twofold. First, as I already mentioned, it is a singularly oppressive place to study, physically and geographically speaking. Anyone who has ever gotten off that bus after a 75 minute commute from civilization only to find themselves in a concrete wasteland in the middle of a Canadian winter knows what I mean. Second, it is inferior to UofT (Toronto's other law school) in almost every conceivable category. As a result, subject to acceptance of course, I just can't see why anyone would choose Osgoode over UofT for either the JD or LLM. As far as the LLM goes, I think its appropriate to distinguish between the academic (i.e. general) and "professional" LLM. The academic LLM falls into the category of lacklustre Canadian programs which, I agree (other than UofT), are generally not world-leading. The professional LLM, at least from speaking with my friends and colleagues who have enrolled in it, is perhaps something of a different story. First, its supposedly very practice-oriented (which, depending on your perspective can be a very good thing or a very bad thing). In an event, if one's goal is to further specialize in a specific area, it may prove useful. Second, its apparently not bad from a networking perspective. Cheers. Sat, 02 Aug 2008 21:47:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#49638 Well I still have to start in Bruges. But my choice took me about two months of research and surveys. I think it is a pretty well made choice. Regarding my preference over Chicago, I think it is better to know first EC competition law, and almost for sure in the future I will think again of Chicago, but only after having gained a fairly broad experience. Learning EC Competition law in the US looked like a nonsense to me. Sat, 02 Aug 2008 22:04:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#49639 I think that makes a lot of sense. In fact, I know someone who did an LL.M at Bruges and then 2 or 3 years later in Chicago. That would certainly seem like the right order. In any event, if you're interested in learning the actual doctrine of EC competition law (as opposed to the underlying econ), then you're right to focus on Europe. Good luck at the College of Europe - I'm sure you'll get a lot out of it! Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:28:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#50052 What about the University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg? The law school has a great reputation for LLM's. agree/disagree? Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:39:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#50055 I would definitely have the university of sydney and the university of melbourne on there. They are both highly reputable for law. Also, universities such as the national university of singapore and university of hong kong have very renowned law schools. Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:21:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#50103 You may want to consider this ranking. It's not specified for law, but for social science which consumes law: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/hybrid.asp?typeCode=150 Fri, 22 Aug 2008 15:32:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#50106 Hi Bush, While it is certainly arguable that law is a social science, the THES methodology actually does not include law for the purposes of the social science rankings. Cheers, Sat, 23 Aug 2008 21:39:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#50123 Hi Paddy Nolan, Please give me a reference to support that statement, I can't find one on either the THE or the QS websites. On the contrary, this link seems to imply that law is taken into consideration (bottom under "programs"): http://www.topuniversities.com/gradschool/schools/data/school_profile/default/londonschooleconomicspoliticalscience/ Sun, 24 Aug 2008 04:47:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#50126 Hi Bush, The link is to a list of social science programs at LSE, not the THES methodology. Notably, the "methodology" section in the THES social science ranking does not mention law. Add to this fact that (1) several of the schools in the ranking don't even have law programs, and (2) the social science rankings do not match up with the THES law rankings, and the picture should start to become a little clearer. In any event, and regardless of whether law is in fact included, the confluence of these factors would seem to suggest that the THES social science rankings are a very poor proxy for a global law ranking. Cheers, Dan Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:35:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#50233 Cowboy, Osgoode's professional LLM program is in fact taught downtown, at the professional development facility near Yonge/Dundas. The Keele Campus is in fact quite ugly and far from any good part of the city, but that's not really the best criteria by which to choose a grad school anyway, is it? With regards to Paddy Nolan's comments, I would have to disagree. I chose Osgoode over U of T and I've never regretted it. I had friends who went to U of T and complained about professors who were accomplished Academics but terrible teachers and who had no time for students. My professors were bright, interesting and always available to chat. I feel like I got a great education and met wonderful people. I think U of T-ers tend to confuse an expensive education with a quality education. Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:55:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#50234 For those who might be new to the UofT v. Osgoode debate, chazb has competently provided the standard knee-jerk argument in favour of Osgoode. I fully acknowledge (in fact, I do acknowledge above) that Osgoode's students and faculty are good. I also concede that UofT has some poor teachers (as all law schools do) and that the some law students may indeed prefer Osgoode to UofT. None of this, however, detracts from the reality that UofT is in many, many ways a far better school - especially for LLMs. Finally, as for the tiresome argument that UofT students are somehow blinded into thinking an expensive education is necessarily a good one... yawn. When are you guys going to check this ridiculous notion at the door already? It makes you look petty and detracts from your argument. Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:25:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#50235 No need to get snippy, PN. I think everyone can agree that the choice of LLM program is specific to the individual. If you really want to be of assistance to those asking about LLM programs, provide some specifics as opposed to bald assertions that U of T is "better". Yawning is not a particularly convincing rebuttal. Thu, 28 Aug 2008 22:05:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#50236 "I think U of T-ers tend to confuse an expensive education with a quality education." Yawning might not be the most convincing rebuttal to a good point, but it's probably an appropriate one to yours. And there's clearly a need to get snippy (That's what anonymous forums are for). Your basis for propping up Osgood is apparently that your professors had a lot of spare time on their hands (Not a lot of journals banging down the doors?), while the death knell for the entire University of Toronto Faculty of Law is that some people you know complained about it. If you really want to be of assistance to those asking about LLM programs (my most fervent desire), you should probably provide some (non-specious) specifics as opposed to bald assertions that Osgood is "a really good deal - like saving 25% on a can of soup because it's dented." Thu, 28 Aug 2008 22:07:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#50237 Chazb, Your personal attack on the intelligence of UofT students does not warrant a 'convincing' rebuttal. Indeed, in the circumstances, I thought a single four letter word was more than adequate to pierce such a thin veil. For what it's worth, it would have been quite simple for you to rephrase your own bald assertion as a question: is the added cost of UofT worth it? Now that is a legitimate question and one certainly of importance to many prospective LLMs. Instead, you took the rather perplexing tack of insulting the intelligence of what are, by all objective standards, a pretty bright group of people. As I have articulated what I believe to be the specific merits of UofT elsewhere on this site, I will refrain from repeating myself. That said, I encourage Chazb, for the edification of prospective LLMs, to do the same for Osgoode. We already know about the architecture and location, what about the quality of graduate administration, flexibility of graduate programs, access to thesis advisors and other faculty, opportunities to assist in faculty research, job and internship prospects, etc.? Cheers, Paddy Thu, 28 Aug 2008 23:27:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#50240 Bender - it's "Osgoode". With an "e". Of course U of T students are bright, Paddy. I never said they weren't. But you have to admit (unless you're completely deluding yourself) that price of tuition is closely linked with quality of education in the minds of many. That doesn't make them stupid. I was simply cautioning against getting sucked in by the U of T marketing machine. I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons to go there. I'm not going to bother to comb this site to find your other posts detailing the merits of U of T, but I'll take your word for it. As for the merits of Osgoode, I'm sure they're also detailed on this site, as well as on Osgoode's website. I'm only familiar with the professional LLM, which obviously offers the flexibility of part-time study and distance education, as well as a wide range of specialties. For my situation, it offered the best alternative. My partner did the regular graduate program at Osgoode and had a wonderful experience with his supervision committee, got to teach research and writing as well as a law course at York, and got to do research with a prominent labour law scholar. Sorry to have ruffled your feathers, boys. Deep breaths - it's the long weekend. Cheers. Mon, 15 Sep 2008 08:02:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#50553 Definitely also add the Hebrew University of Jerusalem... experienced school with some famous Jewish scholars and many great visiting professors every year. Sun, 26 Oct 2008 05:06:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#51316 I wish comments came from students of quoted universities. The reference to Oxford demonstrates ignorance. Have you ever heard of the 1 or 2 year BCL or that non-commonwealth other degree? What specialisation have you in mind? A graduate degree in law assumes a prior knowledge. An LLM is not magic. You bring content. Kennedy said it - don't ask what your LLM can do for you. Ask what you can bring to your LLM. If nothing, don't apply. Blogs BA LLB (Hons) BCL (2 yrs) LLD Barrister (Those in the know see the humour) Sun, 26 Oct 2008 11:12:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#51319 What? Tue, 28 Oct 2008 04:31:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/49459/last#51356 Not in the know.