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French attorney and Californai bar

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tendrejh

Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 1
French attorney and Californai bar
Fri Nov 16, 2007 06:21 AM
Hello there,

Who could advise a French attorney on the best way to get prepared for the California Bar ?
Makes job prospects better ?
Thanks!
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nriattorney

Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 234
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Sat Nov 17, 2007 01:02 PM
Anyone who has taken this route? A 2 year llb followed by the UK bar then the California bar?


Besides searching on net extensively, I have discussed the matter with several attorneys and law professors in USA. The best route for practicing law in USA is 24 credits hours study in an ABA approved law school; it may be LL.M OR a non-degree seeking course; or part-time LL.M. In USA the Bar Licence is granted State-wise; however, if you are registered as an Immigration attorney with any State Bar, you can practice [immigration laws] throughout the country.
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avukat

Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 1
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Sat Nov 17, 2007 05:34 PM
Hey guys,
I have a law degree from Turkey and I live in Tennessee. TN Bar doesn't accept LLM for taking the bar exam. And I don't want to go back to school! What do you recommend? Is there any way that I can use my degree here? Ant advise????
Thanks a lot..
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nriattorney

Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 234
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Mon Nov 19, 2007 01:34 AM
You may apply to California or New York. Once admitted to practice in any of the Bars, you are allowed to practice in TN or any other State for immigration laws.
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jcrp

Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 1
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Thu Nov 22, 2007 08:07 PM
Hi richardvf and everyone else..

I知 a Peruvian lawyer, and I知 American resident since two years ago (I won the visa lottery), although right now I知 living outside the States because of work. This days Iｴm planing to settle definitively in the usa. I have one question:

1.- Is still possible, for a lawyer from a civil law system (like Peru) to sit for the California Bar exam with the only requisite of be admitted in my country as a lawyer? (Registered in the Bar of my country), because a friend told me that rules has changed from that timein California.

Thanks you very much for your help!!!
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richardvf

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 184
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Fri Nov 23, 2007 05:08 AM
The rules have not changed. If you are a licensed Peruvian attorney you are eligible to take the California bar exam. It might be a good idea to get an LL.M for common law exposure though. Here is the link right off the California bar website.

calbar.ca.gov/calbar/pdfs/admissions/77sf.pdf
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southside

Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 1
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:41 PM
richardvf, Underemployedlawyer

Great contributions to the thread, I have found them really informative. I wonder if you would be so kind as to share a little more of your knowledge on this issue?

I am a 5 years qualified lawyer in a decent (top 10) City firm in London with pretty good prospects. My girlfriend is American and I foresee a point at which I might want to emigrate to the US. I don't have any illusions about law as career and have no particular aspirations to 'big law', just to a firm that is big enough to accommodate a pretty high degree of specialism and is honest in its dealings (and that pays reasonably well). I am pretty much an expert in one field which may have some cross-over appeal to US firms.

So what do you think my best route is? Despite my success to date my legal academics are fairly shameful. I did a UK degree in history at decent university and received a 2(i) (equiv magna cum laude???), but then did a Post Graduate Diploma in Law (a one year conversion course) and only recieved a "pass", which is pretty mediocre. I did a bit better in the following compulsory year (the Legal Practice Course) although it is not academic in nature.

I suspect I am going to struggle to get into a decent LLM course. I am not sure if could face doing a JD, although this route would have the advantage of allowing me to do LSAT and thus correcting the poor legal academics.

So, what to do? Should I try to write something decent and get published in a decent academic journal? Would this help with the admissions? Would Cali bar help? I am conscious that being in decent London firm is not going to get me very far with an LLM admission panel without the academic to back it up.

Any ideas?

Thanks guys
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percuriam

Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 5
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Sat Dec 08, 2007 01:42 PM
Your advice is not very feasible for a law student from a country with low bar passage rate(some Asian civil law countries). For example, the passage rate is less than 3% in Korea. An Korean llm applicant can skip the difficult home bar admission to sit for bar exam by obtaining an ll.m in US.

[Edited 08 Dec 2007 by percuriam]
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Romanico

Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 1
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Mon Dec 24, 2007 06:58 AM
Hi richardvf and everyone else..

I知 a Peruvian lawyer, and I知 American resident since two years ago (I won the visa lottery), although right now I知 living outside the States because of work. This days Iｴm planing to settle definitively in the usa. I have one question:

1.- Is still possible, for a lawyer from a civil law system (like Peru) to sit for the California Bar exam with the only requisite of be admitted in my country as a lawyer? (Registered in the Bar of my country), because a friend told me that rules has changed from that timein California.

Thanks you very much for your help!!!


Yes you can sit for the Bar exam in California if you are a cerftified lawyer in almost every Country in the world.

However, the real issue is not to sit but to pass.

The CalBar is the most difficult bar exam in the Planet; lots of ABA educated lawyers can never pass it; LA's Major took it four times and never passed it. Even Kathleen Sullivan already admitted in New York and Massachusetts, former Dean of Stanford Law School failed in her first try.

Lots of ABA qualified JD invest a lot of time and Tonns of money in trying to pass the Bar exam in CA.

There are other options, take a look in the quide I am attaching (chart X), it is not exact but rather plenty of mstakes but at least it could give you some input about other options. You can try Texas or New Mexico; there is not much time left.

Many Supreme Courts over the US are embracing the anti-foreign lawyers in the US. Things will become more and more difficult for us in the near future; try to get a US bar admission as soon as you can; my best advise? forget California, that may be many years from now, even JDs from Harvard who already passed other Bars failed in CA.

Well good luch, I attach the Guide, it contains percentage of approval in the many States.

www.ncbex.org/comprehensive-guide-to-bar-admission…
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none

Joined: 01 Jan 2008
Posts: 1
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Wed Jan 02, 2008 08:21 AM
sorry if this has been answered before...having trouble getting clarity on my predicament.
i have australian LLB, but not admitted in australia, there is a course called the New York Bar Review that did a seminar at my uni last year and told us that we didn't need to be admitted in Australia to qualify to take the NY Bar. Here is their website: www.nybar.com.au

If there are any australians out there who have taken the test, and have not been admitted in australia (and have not done PLT/clerkship), can you let me know what "proofs" you submitted?
thanks in advance!!
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potoca78

Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 1
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Sat Jan 12, 2008 05:07 AM
Hey everybody! I am a lawyer in Venezuela and I would like to take the Bar Exam in Mass. My question is: a LLM assure my seat in the Bar Exam? I qualify in almost everything but i am not sure about "legal education equivalent, in the Board's opinion, to that provided in law schools approved by the American Bar Association"...or maybe is easier go for a Motion in order to be excuse from taking the regular law examination, since I have been admitted in my country for over 5 years? By the way, civilian law rules in Venezuela as in Peru...Is that a problem in order to validate my degree in Vzla before the Board?
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ambassador

Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 1
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Thu Jan 31, 2008 09:38 PM
Hi all.
I have read most of this excellent discussion. I am a UK born but Caribbean educated lawyer and satisfied that with my legal qualifications I am entitled to sit the Bar exam in either NY or CA.

I have an LL.B. (3 years) from the University of the West Indies (UWI); I have the Legal Education Certificate (LEC) (2 years) which entitles me to be admitted to the Bar of any Commonwealth Caribbean country; and I have been admitted to practice and practicing law in Barbados for the past 9 years. Additionally, I have an LL.M. degree in Corporate & Comercial Law also from UWI (2 years). My legal education is based on the UK Common Law system.

My question is whether it is advisable to sit and pass the chosen US Bar exam first and then seek employment with a US law firm, or seek employment first and then sit the Bar exam.

Also does passing the Bar exam give you the right to live and work in the US as a lawyer? I suspect it does not and I will need a special visa of some sort. What is this process (visa application) like and what is the liklihood of getting such visa.

Thanks in advance to all who respond.

ambassador
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giz

Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 2
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Sat Feb 02, 2008 05:57 PM
Hi ambassador. I am a UK educated lawyer who recently sat and passed the July 2007 NY bar examination, while i was studying over there i had the opportunity to come in contact with many foreign educated students. Many of them had taken the LLM at a US university before taking the bar examination, however like you i completed my LLB in a common law jurisdiction and was thus eligible to take the NY bar. From my experience i gather that its definitely beneficial but not a must to secure employment with a US law firm or even some sort of legal internship before taking the bar exam ,because once you past the bar examination the employer might be willing to sponsor you for a H1b visa. Which brings me to your second question passing the bar exam doesn't give you the right to work and live in the US but it does give you the possibility of securing an employer to sponsor you for a H1b visa which can last up to 6 years if successful. There is a very high demand for such Visas and something like only 65,000 visa are issued every year. Which isn't alot considering the demand. For more information on H1b visas you could check www.h1base.com
I hope this information has been of some assistance.
Good luck in all your future endeavors.
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sylviaTT82

Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 2
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Mon Feb 11, 2008 08:59 AM
Hi Giz,

Since you had sat for a bar exam earlier on, just wondering, is it necessary to get a special visa to enter USA for the said purpose? Or I can just make use of my tourist visa?

[Edited 11 Feb 2008 by sylviaTT82]
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giz

Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 2
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:34 PM
Hi sylvia,
you don't need to get a special visa to enter the USA to take the bar, at least that was the case when i went to take the bar last year. I was told that due to the fact that the bar course (pieper bar review) i took was only 8 weeks in duration it was only necessary to have a regular tourist visa.
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kumi

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 2
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Tue Feb 12, 2008 02:56 PM
Great thread. I have been in the US for 2 yrs now and had given up hope of practicing law here..setting to become a legal assistant instead. Can you tell me exacly HOW difficult the cal bar really is? I am thinking it is not an impossible task for those of us who are relatively smart, have crammed and memorized statutes from cover to cover and spent days and nights pouring over case law to pass our local bar exams... am i wrong? I just need some reassuarance that it can be done before i spend almost $1000 on it.

Thanks.
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richardvf

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 184
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Wed Feb 13, 2008 02:30 AM
It can be done. I knew a lawyer from Jamaica and a lawyer from the Phillipines who both passed the California bar.
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Alanissa

Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Posts: 2
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Fri Feb 15, 2008 03:27 AM
Hello richardvf
I'm Carolina, from Buenos Aires, Argentina. I got my law degree at the university of Buenos Aires, last year. I would like to settle in the states. What are my options? I've been reading bout the CA and NY bar exams, but got really confused because i can't figure put if i need a post graduate study just to be able to sit for them.

Honestly, i hate law, and i'm not interested in making a fortune out of it, so, if i sat for the exam, would i be able to make a living?

Thanks

Car
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richardvf

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 184
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Sun Feb 17, 2008 01:57 AM
Hi Carolina. Are you a licensed attorney in Argentina? If you are, you are eligible to take the California bar exam without any further legal education in the US. However, since you have a civil law backround, you should probably consider attending law school here in the US for an US law LL.M before trying to take the California bar exam.

The California Bar has recently changed its requirements regarding educational requirements for foreign law school graduates who are not attorneys. I don't really know the new requirements, but I do know that it would be very difficult for civil law school graduates to meet the educational requirements, even with an US LL.M. For California, the easiest way to qualify to take the bar exam is to be a licensed attorney. It doesn't matter where. If you are a licensed attorney in East Timor, you can take the California bar exam.

I don't know about New York. Maybe somebody else can help you. However, I am fairly certain that you would need to obtain an LL.M to take the New York bar exam.

Personally, I would rather practice law in California than New York. The job market for lawyers is tough in California and New York, but it seems to be worse in New York. If you are able to obtain the legal right to work in the US (getting a law license in the US does not automatically give you the legal right to work in the US), with your Spanish speaking skills, you would probably be able to get a job in California and make a living.

If you hate law why do you want to practice it? The easiest way to get the work visa and permanent residency in the US is to be a nurse. There is a severe shortage of nurses in the US, and the US allows nurses from all over the world to live in the US to fill this shortage. Nurses can make over $100,000 per year with a little bit of overtime. You might not want to be a nurse, but it is the easiest way to get to the states right now. Once you get licensed, it is possible to get a law firm to sponsor you for a work visa. But that is not that common unless you work for a large firm. Good luck.
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Alanissa

Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Posts: 2
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Sun Feb 17, 2008 05:31 PM
I'm sorry to be such a pain in the ...! But suppose I don't take that exam, is it possible to get a job as a legal assistant or I won't be able to get even tthat job?

Thanx and I'm sorry again for bothering you!

Car
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gmc75

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Sun Feb 17, 2008 06:21 PM
To all foreign lawyers in the US (including myself): I hope we all agree on one thing that LLM will never replace JD degree.
If you intend to practice law in the US with LLM you have to understand that you are "handicapped" (class B if it sounds better) from educational point of view.
If all you want from LLM is to be able to sit for NY bar exam, i think i have good news how to save admission headaches and $25,000 tuition + another $10,000 for living expenses.
Here is what you can do:
Stage One: Get admitted to your home Bar.
Stage Two: Take and pass California bax exam as attorney admitted in foreign jurisdiction.
Stage Three: no no no, just two.
Congratulations. You saved $35,000, one year of your life, admission headaches AND you can call your self US attorney now.
Questions?


yes i know and actually you didn't say anything new :)
if no-Americans (like me) had the time to browse some law schools' and Bar websites', they'd realize you don't need to go to law school to get a job in the US. Notwithstanding, Sguy is right: to get a job in a US law firm is tough, if you're not a JD. Hence, my question is, do you REALLY NEED to work in the US "like" any other US attorney? No way. The best thing would be to take an LL.M., THEN work so hard that a very good law-firm that has got an office in YOUR OWN country will pick you. Most of the times, very good no-US law firms have an office in NYC, LA or DC. Later, you may hope they'll send you to the office they have in the US: US attorneys working in Italy for Italian law firms do have US clients, as well as Italian attorneys who took a degree over here, went working for their Italian clients located in NYC. However, i got some friends who worked in NYC for a while, eventually they all came back after making lots of bucks. Why? You'll have a breakdown after working in NYC for more than 5 years, they said.
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Lofty

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 15
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Sun Feb 17, 2008 06:59 PM
You do not need a law degree to sit the California State Bar Exam. You do not even need 'a degree' at all. You can just sit the California Bar and then do the New York one a few months later.

Alternatively, if you want to save yourself countless thousands of dollars on bar preparation courses and flights and accommodation trekking around the USA, you can just become qualified in your own jurisdiction. Make sure your home Bar or Law Society has a reciprocity agreement with the New York State Bar Examiners Office, otherwise you will have wasted loads of time and money, and you will have to go the California route.

Also, you have to make sure that your law degree is a law degree recognised by the NY Bar Examiners. If it isn't recognised, you will have to go the California route.

Furthermore, the NY Bar Examiners require you to have a minimum duration requirement of a 3 year undergraduate law degree from a University they recognise. If you only have a 2 year undergrad law degree (like some accelerated graduate-entry courses) you will not meet the duration requirement.

They WILL NOT count a Masters course as making up the missing year. The 3 years must be made up of 'undergraduate' study. They will count summer courses that get you ABA credits. 2 summer courses and a 2 year degree will generally qualify you in the eyes of the NY Bar Examiners.

Overall, getting qualified in your home jurisdiction and then getting NY qualified will make you an attractive prospect for some of the international law firms. For example, if you are qualified in, say Ireland, and the NY firm is looking to do business there, they may decide "Great stuff! We can get this guy to do all the Irish work we would have had to hire someone in that country to do. That will save us loads of money! Spot of Golf anyone? I'll take us in my new Bentley!"

Some, or most of this, has probably already been said in earlier posts, but I got lazy and couldn't be bothered reading 6 pages of broken English. No offence...
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greencard

Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 9
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Mon Feb 18, 2008 04:29 PM
California - for foreign graduates, you need to be qualified in another jurisidiction, be it NY, England & Wales, or elsewhere in order to sit CA exam. Otherwise a Californian JD or LLM is needed

New York - I don't know of any Law Societies or Bar Associations with NY reciprocity. Irish and UK trained solicitors still have to pass the NY bar in exactly the same way as a recent graduate would. Presume it's exactly the same for civil law grads etc.
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Lofty

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 15
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Mon Feb 18, 2008 06:29 PM
California - for foreign graduates, you need to be qualified in another jurisidiction, be it NY, England & Wales, or elsewhere in order to sit CA exam. Otherwise a Californian JD or LLM is needed

New York - I don't know of any Law Societies or Bar Associations with NY reciprocity. Irish and UK trained solicitors still have to pass the NY bar in exactly the same way as a recent graduate would. Presume it's exactly the same for civil law grads etc.


I didn't necessarily mean reciprocity in the sense that you wouldn't have to sit the NY Bar exam at all. What I meant was that the NY Bar Examiners do not recognise every countries bar or law society. So just because you are a qualified Attorney in your own country does not mean they will let you sit the NY Bar.

The Common Law jurisdictions that I know they recognise are the Law Society of England & Wales, the Bar of England & Wales, the Incorporated Law Society of Ireland, the Bar of Ireland, the Bar of Ontario, and the Bar of New South Wales in Australia. The don't even recognise any of the other territories of Australia's bar associations. I'm not even sure if they recognise the bar or institute of Northern Ireland?

As for Civil Law bars that are recognised? I have no idea. Probably France, Germany, Scotland, Italy, Holland, Spain, etc. But I have no real knowledge on the subject.

If California requires you to have an American Masters degree to qualify, then they are the only State in the Union that have such a requirement. The other 48 States (I'm not counting Louisianna because it's Civil Law and don't know the requirements) DO NOT recognise a Masters degree as qualifying you to sit their bar.

Without qualification in a recognised home country, you must have a 3 year undergraduate degree in law to sit the bar. It does not have to be a JD, it can be a 3 year degree from anywhere (there are exceptions to that though, for example, they will only recognise 4 year law degrees from India and Pakistan). I would find it highly unlikely that California has different rules than the other States.
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greencard

Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 9
Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.
Mon Feb 18, 2008 07:56 PM
Allow me to clarify:
CA - LLM required for a foreign graduate but only if not qualified in home jurisdiction. Obviously the state doesn't require an LLM from a Californian or other US law grad (JD is sufficient for them).

NY is broad in terms of the foreign graduates it allows sit its exams. Lots of common law (SA, Aus, NZ, Ire, UK, Can) take it, as do many continental Europeans, Asians and more.

Basically, if you're from an English-speaking, common law country, it's plain sailing.

In US bar admission terminology, 'reciprocity' refers to the ability to qualify in multiple states after serving time practising in one state (e.g it applies in Washington and Oregon, to name just two). Candidates don't have to sit a second bar exam.

[Edited 18 Feb 2008 by greencard]
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