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Doing the LLM vs. Taking the New York Bar- Which should be done first.

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Kim_Facey

Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Posts: 7
Doing the LLM vs. Taking the New York Bar- Which should be done first.
Mon Jan 19, 2009 01:53 AM
I have been doing research on how to qualify as a lawyer in New York, and I was thoroughly assisted by various persons on this site. However, I realized that the issue really is not so much taking the New York Bar and passing it. There is also the issue of obtaining the H-1B visa. due to the quota restrictions etc. I realized that doing an LLM is not so bad after all- in terms of doing it first and then doing the Bar.

Foreign students on F-1 student visas are entitled to a one year work authorization period called “optional practical training” upon conclusion of their studies. Given the large number of LLM students at US law schools, this can be useful especially given the scarcity of H-1B visas. The OPT can often allow for the lawyer to work legally while waiting on an H-1B visa number to become available or until work authorization tied to permanent residency comes through.

So i am now reconsidering at best- What do you guys think!??!?
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crm042

Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Posts: 10
Doing the LLM vs. Taking the New York Bar- Which should be done first.
Mon Jan 19, 2009 02:55 AM
The initial opinion that I shared with you was solely on the premise that you could become an Attorney in NY without the need to do an LLM beforehand. However, having read your second posting, it would be wiser to do the LLM by virtue of the OPT, since flying to NY to sit the Bar and returning to Barbados would be, partially, counter productive and brings with it the added hassle of finding a job and obtaining a 'work visa'. At least, after completing the LLM you will have the option of working but bear in mind that after the LLM you would then be preparing for the NY Bar exam - presumably, which means that you would have taken up a good few months out of the OPT period. Unles, of course, you are planning to work in a legal setting immediately after your LLM for the duration of the OPT period. But then, after that, you'll be back at square one, i.e. - what would be the next step after the OPT period in the absence of not doing the NY Bar? Conversely, what would be your next move if you take the Bar in the OPT period? Would it be a situation where you will be hoping to find an employer in order to get a work visa?

To quote you:

'...the OPT can often allow for the lawyer to work legally while waiting on an H-1B visa number to become available or until work authorization tied to permanent residency comes through..'

Re the quotation, isn't the OPT a year long? The quote seems to imply otherwise. Please advise me accordingly.Our circumstances are not that different.




[Edited by crm042 on 19 Jan 2009]
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Christ-Choice

Joined: 10 Dec 2008
Posts: 54
Doing the LLM vs. Taking the New York Bar- Which should be done first.
Mon Jan 19, 2009 05:21 AM
Brother, you seem to get the wrong cow by the tail! The whole point of the LL.M (for the OP), obviously, is to improve specialisation and get a job in a big corporate law firm paying lots of money ($$$$$$$).

So why the LLM for this purpose?

A) You get the chance to sell yourself to law firms for a whole year (or 2 if you count the OPT) on American soil. If you're in a participating school, you may get the chance to compete for firms (ISIP or Columbia Law Fair for LLMs - which includes several schools like Yale and Harvard), go to New York and have interviews in January of your LL.M year.

B) After performing A (that is, get an offer from a firm through ISIP, Columbia Law Fair or your own methods), you continue your LL.M and apply in February of your LL.M year to sit the NY Bar later in July.

C). You finish your LL.M in May (usually), stay behind on campus (or somewhere in the US) and study for your NY Bar exams and then sit it on the last Wednesday/Thursday of the July following the completion of your LL.M.

D). You then (usually) move to NYC, get an apartment and start at the firm in late August/early September.

E) November, you know the outcome of your Bar exam and, if you do well, you hope the employer likes you enough not only to retain you permanently in NYC (some firms send people to foreign branches of the firms) but also to sponsor your H-1B.

Now, this is the ideal situation and it can happen to you if you seek Him with all your heart and soul.

We thank Him for His guidance.

Amen, Amen, Amen.

[Edited by Christ-Choice on 19 Jan 2009]
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Sdevante

Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 102
Doing the LLM vs. Taking the New York Bar- Which should be done first.
Mon Jan 19, 2009 07:28 AM
FWIW, I have a friend from Kazakhstan (sp?) who came to Vanderbilt for an LLM and decided to stay in the States. He then ended up going to Michigan for a JD. He is still unemployed as a 3L, despite excellent credentials.

It might not be as easy as you think to come to the States, get an LLM, and then just waltz into a big law firm in NYC making bank. I know many JD students here that can't even do it, and firms prefer JDs to LLMs.
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crm042

Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Posts: 10
Doing the LLM vs. Taking the New York Bar- Which should be done first.
Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:16 AM
Christ-choice, I think the benefits of doing an LLM, primarily its effect on ones marketability, be it a specialist in a particular area of law or otherwise, is well documented and is not disputed at any length.

My knowledge insofar as the different visa categories in the US is concerned, is insufficient and I have not conducted a research. However, I know that in general a visa is normally given in line with the length of a particular course, thus, I was arguing along that particular line... based on your argument, which I fully appreciate, it appears that a candidate will have no problem whatsover doing the LLM and a Bar preparation course concurrently. Notwithstanding, that you have stated that one would normally complete the LLM in May - which leaves two months to prepare for the NY Bar Exam. Now, I dont know if such little time would suit everyone, unless he or she was doing some sort of preparation whilst doing the LLM having applied to sit the Bar in February of the LLM year.

Anyways, brother, I have seen your point but it cant be denied that it will be a hell of a task for an LLB graduate who will need to familiarize himself with the American Legal System, although, depending on the LLM that he does, such grounding would have been already implemented. Am I right to state that all foreign law students wishing to do an LLM in the States must do foundation modules geared at them learning the American Legal System regardless of the areas they wish to specialize in...?

[Edited by crm042 on 19 Jan 2009]
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Christ-Choice

Joined: 10 Dec 2008
Posts: 54
Doing the LLM vs. Taking the New York Bar- Which should be done first.
Mon Jan 19, 2009 03:54 PM
Brother, F-1 enables you an additional year (OPT) following your LL.M. Anyway, you can delay doing the Bar until the February of the year following the completion of your LL.M. Some foreign guys do that and the firms understand. Anyway, US guys do the Bar in 8wks - following the completion of their JDs. Harvard LL.M friends of mine had to do the same and they succeeded.

So, like all things, it's possible if you serve Him.

Salut Saint Sdevante! I think you've made the case for the danger of doing LL.Ms at schools outside Harvard, Columbia, Yale, Stanford and, just maybe, NYU. My apologies to other schools and their applicants. It's just that as far as I am concerned, a foreign LL.M will struggle to get a Biglaw job should they come outside of this circle.

You can check the websites of the 5 most successful commercial firms (based on Vault) and see where nearly all the few LL.Ms come from.

Additionally, you need to acquire work experience in your own country with recognized firms, work on a specialised area, develop that during (or before) the LL.M through writing a paper and be prepared to always learn and discuss crucial new developments in your field. Your country also can matter, particularly in terms foreign firm activity, nature of the economy and, of course, language.

The simple point is that those who are successful with firms in NYC (and LLM at these schools) are those who are already likely to be successful in their own countries but for some reasons want to make use of large Amercian dollars ($$$$$$$).

Trust me, we have worked out these things in my place of worship and for two years now, four have gone on to either Yale or Harvard and are not outside the top five firms in NY (we've learnt what you need to get in here).

Although, I'm next in line but my turn has come to past as we await His manifestation.

Amen, Amen, Amen.

[Edited by Christ-Choice on 19 Jan 2009]
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Durham Red

Joined: 29 Nov 2008
Posts: 70
Doing the LLM vs. Taking the New York Bar- Which should be done first.
Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:23 PM
Kim_Facey

I don't know if this helps, but I have decided to cover all options for the same aims as yourself.

I have an English LL.B. and 5 years Post Qualified Experience at average English law firms. I too want to work in New York. I'd sweep the streets if that would allow me to live there!

I have applied to seven universities for an LL.M. programme and will now start to apply for work with New York law firms. If I get a sponsor, I can drop the LL.M. and save $50k+. I will sit the NY bar exam this July using the BarBri course. If I fail this year I'll take it again next year after the LL.M.

This way you can cover all bases. Hope this helps.
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