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Can anybody answer these questions on Australia?

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AJ

Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 51
Can anybody answer these questions on Australia?
Tue Jun 07, 2005 06:55 PM
Hi guys,

I shall be grateful if someone could provide me with answers to the following questions:

1) How is legal profession viewed in Australia? I mean, is the situation somewhat like US where it is one of the most popular career choice?
2) Do many international students come to Australia for LLM? A perusal of the threads on this website tells me that hardly anyone is interested in an Australian LLM although I don't quiet understand why?
3) What are the hot practice areas in Australia? Is it similar to US where Intellectual Property is quiet popular?
4) What is the scope of litigation in Australia? In what areas does one find the bulk of litigation?
5) Can foreign trained lawyers with a Australian LLM practice in Australia? Are there any requirements of a bar exam?
6) Between Sydney and Melbourne, which city offers better prospects for lawyers?
7) Which are the top 3 universities in Australia to pursue an LLM degree?
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patrm

Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 7
Re: Can anybody answer these questions on Australia?
Fri Jun 10, 2005 04:21 AM
) How is legal profession viewed in Australia? I mean, is the situation somewhat like US where it is one of the most popular career choice?
BEHIND MEDICINE, LAW IS THE MOST POPULAR COURSE AND THE HARDEST TO GET INTO.

2) Do many international students come to Australia for LLM? A perusal of the threads on this website tells me that hardly anyone is interested in an Australian LLM although I don't quiet understand why?
QUITE A FEW FOR THE LLB - NOT SURE ABOUT THE LLM THOUGH.

MOST TOP AUSTRALIAN LAWYERS AND LAW STUDENTS DO THEIR LLM OVERSEAS IN THE US OR UK.

OF THOSE WHO DO THEIR LLM IN AUSTRALIA, THEY TEND TO WORK FULL TIME AT A FIRM AND ATTEND PART-TIME EVENING CLASSES AT SYD UNI OR MELB UNI. OF COURSE SOME DO THE LLM FULL-TIME.

3) What are the hot practice areas in Australia? Is it similar to US where Intellectual Property is quiet popular?
AS IN THE US.

4) What is the scope of litigation in Australia? In what areas does one find the bulk of litigation?
IN THE BIG FIRMS IT IS IN CORPORATE LAW - TRANSACTIONS, M AND A, BANKING, TAX, GENERAL COMMERCIAL LITIGATION, INSURANCE, REINSURANCE, ENERGY AND RESOURCES, ENV LAW, BIO TECH, IP ETC.

IN SOME OF THE SMALLER FIRMS YOU CAN ALSO DO PERSONAL INJURY, FAMILY LAW, CRIMINAL LAW


5) Can foreign trained lawyers with a Australian LLM practice in Australia? Are there any requirements of a bar exam?
YES BUT YOU WILL HAVE TO MEET ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS - E.G. 3 MONTH PRACTICAL LEGAL TRAINING COURSE IN SYD - AT THE COLLEGE OF LAW OR IN-HOUSE AT A FIRM. IN MELB YOU WILL NEED TO DO 12 MONTH STINT AS AN ARTICLE CLERK.

6) Between Sydney and Melbourne, which city offers better prospects for lawyers?

BOTH ARE SIMILAR. SYD IS PROBABLY A LITTLE MORE PRESTIGOUS. SYD LAWYERS ARE PAID MORE AND THE SYD OFFICES OF BIG FIRMS ARE HARDER TO GET INTO.

SYD IS THE FINANCIAL CAPITAL OF AUS AND ALL BUT 2 OF AUST'S HIGH COURT JUDGES ARE FROM SYD. IT IS POSSIBLE THAT IT HAS A SLIGHTLY HIGHER CONCENTRATION OF WORK AND LAWYERS.

A FIRST LAWYER AT SYD ALLENS OR MALLESONS EG EARNS MORE THAN A FIRST YEAR LAWYER AT MELB ALLENS OR MALLESONS. THESE FIRMS ALSO GET MORE INTERNAL REQUESTS FOR TRANSFER TO THEIR SYD OFFICES THAN THEIR OFFICES IN OTHER CITIES

7) Which are the top 3 universities in Australia to pursue an LLM degree?

SYD UNI, MELB UNI, AUSTRALIAN NATIONAL UNIVERSITY (ANU).
UNIVERSITY OF NEW SOUTH WALES AND MONASH ARE ALSO VERY GOOD.
I WOULD RECOMMEND SYD OR MELB. ANU IS IN CANBERRA WHICH IS SMALL, QUIET AND COLD IN WINTER (POPULATION OF 300,000). YOU WILL HAVE A BETTER TIME IN SYD OR MELB. OF THESE TWO I WOULD RECOMMEND SYD - NOT ON THE BASIS OF THE LAW SCHOOL - MORE IN TERMS OF LIFESTYLE - THE WEATHER IS BETTER, IT IS MORE VIBRANT AND IT IS ALSO MORE BEAUTIFUL.
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AJ

Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 51
Re: Can anybody answer these questions on Australia?
Fri Jun 10, 2005 07:22 PM
Dear patrm,

I can't thank you enough for replying. I was trying very hard to get an insider's view and am extremely grateful to you for having provided me with the info. Would it be possible for you to shed some light on these additional questions:

1) What is the scope of Dispute Resolution in Australia especially Arbitration and Mediation? Someone told me Dispute Resolution is really hot in Australia.
2) What are the prospects of foreign lawyers in Australia. I mean, is it like US where LLMs find it real hard to compete with the JDs?
3) If I wish to work in Australia would you recommend an Australian LLM or would it be a better idea if I take up an LLM from either US or UK and then come to Australia to work.

Cheers,
AJ.
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AJ

Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 51
Re: Can anybody answer these questions on Australia?
Fri Jun 10, 2005 08:10 PM
Dear patrm,

I missed a question:

4) Given the fact that most top Australian students don't take up an Australian LLM, do you think its worth going for an Australian LLM?

Thanks.
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patrm

Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 7
Re: Re: Can anybody answer these questions on Australia?
Sun Jun 12, 2005 02:00 AM
SEE BELOW
Dear patrm,

I can't thank you enough for replying. I was trying very hard to get an insider's view and am extremely grateful to you for having provided me with the info. Would it be possible for you to shed some light on these additional questions:

1) What is the scope of Dispute Resolution in Australia especially Arbitration and Mediation? Someone told me Dispute Resolution is really hot in Australia.
I CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT THE SCOPE IS EXACTLY - BUT IT IS POPULAR IN THE LARGE FIRMS WITH MOST HAVING A SECTION DEVOTED TO ADR.

2) What are the prospects of foreign lawyers in Australia. I mean, is it like US where LLMs find it real hard to compete with the JDs?
I AM NOT REALLY SURE - THERE MIGHT BE VISA ISSUES. AS FOR NOT HAVING THE LLB, IF YOU HAVE PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE OVERSEAS WORKING AS A LAWYER THEN IT MIGHT BE LESS DIFFICULT.

3) If I wish to work in Australia would you recommend an Australian LLM or would it be a better idea if I take up an LLM from either US or UK and then come to Australia to work.

I AM NOT ENTIRELY SURE - IF YOU WANT TO DO AUSTRALIAN WORK AND YOU DO NOT HAVE AN AUSTRALIAN LLB THEN I WOULD RECOMMEND THE AUS LLM - HOWEVER, IF YOU DO A US OR UK LLM FOR IT TO BE AN ADVANTAGE YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO TO OXBRIDGE OR HAR, YALE, COL - AND YOU MIGHT ALSO WANT TO WORK AS A LAWYER OVERSEAS FOR A COUPLE/FEW YEARS BEFORE TRANSFERRING HERE INTO A FIRM AS A LATERAL.


Cheers,
AJ.
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patrm

Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 7
Re: Re: Can anybody answer these questions on Australia?
Sun Jun 12, 2005 02:01 AM
Dear patrm,

I missed a question:

4) Given the fact that most top Australian students don't take up an Australian LLM, do you think its worth going for an Australian LLM?

IF YOU WANT TO WORK IN AUS, YES.

Thanks.
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AJ

Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 51
Re: Can anybody answer these questions on Australia?
Tue Jun 14, 2005 05:37 AM
Hi patrm,

Thanks again for the info. Three more questions if you don't mind:

1) In some legal systems,for instance, in India a lawyer wishing to be a litigator has to wait for 3-5 years befor he can expect to get some real work. Till then he has to work with some senior lawyer. I don't mean that he cannot litigate till that period. It's just that he'll find it really difficult to get cases as he's just started out. Also, judges seem to be more favourable towards lawyers with 5-10 years experience at the Bar. What is the situation in Australia?

2) I have heard that in UK generally Asians are looked down upon and someone who wishes to litigate in Courts there can expect an extremely tough outing. What is the situation in Australia?

3) What is the state of judiciary in Australia. I can tell you that in India it is considered to be somewhat corrupt and many a times getting relief from the judges has less to do with the law and more to do with your standing at the Bar and relations with the judges.

Thanks,
AJ.
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patrm

Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 7
Re: Re: Can anybody answer these questions on Australia?
Tue Jul 12, 2005 06:00 AM
Hi AJ,
See below:

) In some legal systems,for instance, in India a lawyer wishing to be a litigator has to wait for 3-5 years befor he can expect to get some real work. Till then he has to work with some senior lawyer. I don't mean that he cannot litigate till that period. It's just that he'll find it really difficult to get cases as he's just started out. Also, judges seem to be more favourable towards lawyers with 5-10 years experience at the Bar. What is the situation in Australia?
AS A SOLICITOR YOU WILL BE WORKING UNDER ANOTHER LAWYER FOR SOME TIME. IF YOU ARE IN A BIG FIRM YOU WILL GET TO BE ON MORE PRESTIGOUS CASES BUT YOU WON'T HAVE MUCH TIME IN COURT AND YOU MAY END UP DOING VERY BORING WORK FOR THE FIRST COUPLE OF YEARS E.G. DISCOVERY.
IN AUSTRALIA MOST IN-COURT WORK IS DONE BY BARRISTERS. IF YOU GO TO THE BAR THEN YOU WILL HAVE LOTS OF COURT TIME. USUALLY, HOWEVER, PEOPLE WORK AS A SOLICITOR FOR A BIT BEFORE DOING THIS.

2) I have heard that in UK generally Asians are looked down upon and someone who wishes to litigate in Courts there can expect an extremely tough outing. What is the situation in Australia?
I DON'T THINK THIS IS THE CASE HERE. IF YOUR ACCENT IS EASILY UNDERSTOOD YOU WON'T HAVE A PROBLEM IN COURT WORKING AS A BARRISTER.

3) What is the state of judiciary in Australia. I can tell you that in India it is considered to be somewhat corrupt and many a times getting relief from the judges has less to do with the law and more to do with your standing at the Bar and relations with the judges.
THE STATE OF THE JUDICIARY IS VERY GOOD. THERE ARE NO CORRUPTION PROBLEMS.
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AJ

Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 51
Re: Re: Re: Can anybody answer these questions on Australia?
Wed Jul 13, 2005 03:00 AM
Hi patrm,

Thanks for replying. It's been a long time and I have managed to find a few more questions to bother you. Here I go:

1) In one of your earlier response you had told me that foreign lawyers with an Australian LLM wanting to work as a Solicitor etc. will need to undergo practical legal training or articleship. I have been told by a few people that in addition to this, I will also be required to study the preistly 11 and without the preistly 11 my LLM degree would have practically no value as I will not be called a Solicitor even if I have taken the mandatory requirement of training/articleship. Is this true?

2) Do LLM students in Australia take up classes with the JD students, as in the US, or are they taught separately? Also, what teaching methodology is adopted in the LLM courses. Is it similar to the US where the socratic method is used?

Thanks,
AJ.
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bearpooh

Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 9
Re: Re: Re: Re: Can anybody answer these questions on Australia?
Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:06 AM
I have been told by a few people that in addition to this, I will also be required to study the preistly 11 and without the preistly 11 my LLM degree would have practically no value as I will not be called a Solicitor even if I have taken the mandatory requirement of training/articleship. Is this true?


www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/lpab/ll_lpab.nsf/pa…

Have a look at the assessment guidelines file.

It says in part:
"An applicant who has undertaken training in England, Wales, Northern Ireland or Scotland is regarded as having completed the academic requirements for admission to practice if they have completed either a degree in law or the Common Professional Examinations, followed by the Legal Practice Course.

A person in this category is normally required to take such of the following subjects as are not substantially equivalent to subjects which they have taken as part of their earlier studies.
Legal Institutions
Contracts
Torts
Criminal Law
Real Property
Equity
Australian Constitutional law
Commercial Transactions
Administrative Law
Company Law
Evidence
Civil Procedure
Legal Ethics


Applicants from civil law jurisdictions will normally be required to take all of these subjects.

Applicants from common law jurisdictions will normally gain substantial exemption.

Applicants from jurisdictions where the common law has a significant influence, such as South Africa, will also gain significant exemption, although many such applicants are required to study the following subjects:
Real Property
Equity
Australian Constitutional Law

Applicants from New Zealand, Singapore, England, Wales, Northern Ireland, Ireland, certain Canadian provinces and some other common law jurisdictions have studied land registration systems as part of a Real Property course. Where this is the case an applicant is not normally required to study Real Property.
....

PARTICULAR JURISDICTIONS

Applications are commonly received from persons who have met the academic requirements for admission or been admitted in the following jurisdictions. Subject to the immediately preceding paragraphs, the applicants are normally required to take at least the subjects indicated. The information provided below is not definitive, but is meant to be a guide only. You may in fact be required to take more subjects than those listed below.
United States

Real Property and Australian Constitutional Law
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LordWilberforce

Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 8
Re: Re: Re: Re: Can anybody answer these questions on Australia?
Wed Oct 05, 2005 05:28 PM
AJ,

First of all, if you've not yet read my reply to your initial thread on Australian LLMs, go and read that.

Second, in relation to your question about litigation - and how long it will take you to get quality work as a "litigator".

Before you ask more questions here, go to your law library and find out the distinction between Barristers and Solicitors that exists in the United Kingdom and Australia. What you mean (if you are American) by "litigator" is not the same as what we mean by "litigation solicitor".

The independent Bar is a separate profession in England & Wales and the Australian states of New South Wales and Queensland. Partnership is forbidden at the Bar (i.e., barristers do not practise in firms). Barristers are subject to different ethical rules. Barristers must undertake additional training to that of solicitors, in the form of the Bar Readers' Course (6 months, full-time) and Pupillage (12 months, full-time). You can not expect to earn any income during those periods and must fund tuition fees and living costs yourself.

Furthermore, if you're American, what you need to understand is that solicitors have no right of audience in superior courts here. It is not the same as the U.S., where anyone who is admitted can argue a case in a superior court. Moreover, lay clients cannot normally instruct a barrister directly. By lay clients, I mean people who are not solicitors.

Before you ask more questions about litigation, please do us the courtesy of reading up on the structure of the British/Australian legal system (from which, after all, your [the U.S.] legal system is a mutation).

Try starting with the Bar Council of England & Wales at:

www.barcouncil.org.uk
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