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NYU versus Columbia

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DMM
Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 9
NYU versus Columbia
Mon Mar 23, 2009 09:43 AM
These are 2 amazing schools and I realize that I am very lucky to be in the position of having to choose between them. What I'm looking for is people who actually know if one has a better reputation than the other one, especially in terms of job prospects. Thanks!
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loop_
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 25
NYU versus Columbia
Mon Mar 23, 2009 09:47 AM
Columbia is better, but mainly outside of the USA.

In the USA, when you consider that most of the law firms hire many grads from both Columbia and NYU, amongst other schools, being in a top 10 school probably just ticks a box, and they will look to your other credentials.
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Lionel Hutz
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 56
NYU versus Columbia
Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:31 PM
Columbia
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applicant20091
Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 45
NYU versus Columbia
Mon Mar 23, 2009 01:44 PM
CLS : more well known (at least internationally), smaller program (hence more selective).
I was in the same situation and I chose CLS over NYU.

Regarding the job prospects in the US, no matter which school you will eventually choose to attend, they look very very very limited.
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erich
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 7
NYU versus Columbia
Mon Mar 23, 2009 03:51 PM
flip a coin
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nicolas_a
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 47
NYU versus Columbia
Mon Mar 23, 2009 05:00 PM
depends on the area you wish to focus on
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James79
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 19
NYU versus Columbia
Tue Mar 24, 2009 04:26 PM
I think both are very good schools, but Columbia is more traditional, and prestigious... I also think that the program is better, better professors... it was my first option actually...
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loop_
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 25
NYU versus Columbia
Tue Mar 24, 2009 04:32 PM
I think both are very good schools, but Columbia is more traditional, and prestigious... I also think that the program is better, better professors... it was my first option actually...


NYU has been trying very hard to place itself on a level footing with those on the top, and I think largely it has been very successful (that's why I'm going there!).

That said your impression and the impression of many I have spoken to proves that nothing beats having a rich history. I think NYU also suffers because the graduate law school is its jewel in what is an otherwise less impressive institution, whereas Columbia, for example, has an excellent all-round reputation.

[Edited by loop_ on 24 Mar 2009]

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MAP2009
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 164
NYU versus Columbia
Tue Mar 24, 2009 04:45 PM
Columbia
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yasminm
Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Posts: 110
NYU versus Columbia
Wed Mar 25, 2009 03:22 AM
I would say CLS as well, though, loop, I have to say that I am very impressed that you are able to state things so objectively despite enrolling as a student at NYU. Many of us (and I'm not excusing myself from this phenomenon!) tend to view the institutions we enrol in with rose-tinted glasses and it is always refreshing to see someone divorce themselves from such spurious considerations and to be willing to adopt such an objective approach despite the obvious tensions. It augurs well for the future of NYU definitely!
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koala

Joined: 16 Sep 2008
Posts: 171
NYU versus Columbia
Wed Mar 25, 2009 07:53 AM
Hi, Columbia has an 'Ivy League' aura attached to it but overall both law schools have a great reputation in the US and abroad. They are also excellent for legal graduate studies. Base your choice on the subjects you would like to study and compare the Professors. I understand that NYU seems to have an edge in international law and in tax law while CLS is extremely strong in IP and in Corporate (for example).

[Edited by koala on 25 Mar 2009]

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JURISMASTER
Joined: 12 Nov 2008
Posts: 45
NYU versus Columbia
Wed Mar 25, 2009 08:04 AM
Except for Tax and Public International Law, go to Columbia, no-brainer
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wolla
Joined: 22 Jan 2009
Posts: 100
NYU versus Columbia
Wed Mar 25, 2009 08:11 AM
Except for Tax and Public International Law, go to Columbia, no-brainer


ditto!
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koala

Joined: 16 Sep 2008
Posts: 171
NYU versus Columbia
Wed Mar 25, 2009 08:16 AM
What is CLS's reputation for transactional law, international commercial contracts and international private law?
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loop_
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 25
NYU versus Columbia
Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:11 AM
just thought I'd also add that I attended the NYU online chat session for admitted students yesterday and they said that 10-20% of the 2008 NYU LLM graduates were hired for US jobs during the job fair, and that they expected it to be 10% for the coming year. They also reported a drop in the number of firms participating the job fair.

yasminm: no point pretending that your 3rd choice is your 1st. that said getting your 3rd choice still feels pretty good!
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yasminm
Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Posts: 110
NYU versus Columbia
Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:33 AM
I wonder whether they mean 10-20% of their ENTIRE LLM cohort, because that would comport more realistically with anecdotal evidence, since once a person takes into account their taxation LLM class, which is an extremely sought after qualification (and which includes many JDs) and which often leads to employment, it doesn't leave much left for the rest of the cohort. I am skeptical of the claim if the allusion is to the general LLM because at this juncture, there are seriously no jobs for LLMs in NY at the moment (save the taxation caveat mentioned above), not even for the most well-qualified. This is not a criticism of NYU but a comment on the US legal system as a whole - no LLM from a reputed institution, not HLS, SLS, YLS or CLS would render anyone immune from unemployment now.
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loop_
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 25
NYU versus Columbia
Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:43 AM
they were not clear on that (i should have asked), but they did say that they reported an 80% hire of 2008 tax llm graduates, so i'm guessing the 10-20% must be for LLM students minus the tax graduates, or else the figure would be closer to 30-40%?

that said, even 10% of about 200+ non-tax llm applicants makes 20, which is plausible as a figure, considering the number of firms out there. but it still means that it's highly unlikely you'll be successful.
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Hedek

Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 152
NYU versus Columbia
Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:51 AM
NYU online chat session for admitted students yesterday and they said that 10-20% of the 2008 NYU LLM graduates were hired for US jobs during the job fair


How many of those 10-20% also had JDs? Most domestic students enrolled in the NYU tax LLM have JDs. So figures provided by NYU must be interpreted cautiously. What are the actual figures for non JD holders, ie. international students?

I'm not worried for US JD holders who also have an LLM from a top 14 law school. Job prospects for them will be excellent once this stupid crisis is over.
As for international students, unless you're very lucky or in the top 1%, and even then...

[Edited by Hedek on 25 Mar 2009]

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yasminm
Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Posts: 110
NYU versus Columbia
Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:02 AM
Hi loop, thanks for your insights, though I'd echo Hedek's sentiments. Not like 10-20% is a high figure to begin with but in this economy, but even 10-20% sounds a tad bit unrealistic if that figure excludes taxation LLMs (which, for some reason, appears relatively immune from market fluctuations and even then, my own understanding is 80% is considered low by taxation LLM standards - I've seen years where it was virtually every single applicant getting jobs in NY for taxation!). Anything above a single digit (and even then, a modestly low single digit), once one excludes the taxation LLM students, the data would appear to be completely inconsistent with anecdotal evidence on the ground. With that in mind, I tend to think that the data includes the taxation students, and because of that, is really not reflective of the sentiment on the ground.

I'm stressing this not because it is important to me either way but because I think it is important to highlight the following fact about the New York legal landscape: there are no jobs available. I stress this because I've seen far too many friends come here, go to amazingly wonderful schools, only to end up bitterly disappointed and wondering how to pay off the loans that they took on the assumption they could pay it back with a well-paying job in NY. Would hate for anyone from this Board to find themselves in that sort of quandry if it can at all be avoided.

[Edited by yasminm on 25 Mar 2009]

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loop_
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 25
NYU versus Columbia
Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:12 AM
that's fair enough. I think graduate admissions put the figure at 10% as an optimistic upper band.
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nicolas_a
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 47
NYU versus Columbia
Wed Mar 25, 2009 02:10 PM
I've mostly been looking at tax llm figures (nyu) but from what i've read, direct hiring of international students by ny base firmed is almost non existant this year... however, some global firms do still hire associates in their home countries offices and make them start in ny

the cruel thing is that the dawnfall could be even worse for domestic students...
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DMM
Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 9
NYU versus Columbia
Wed Mar 25, 2009 03:18 PM
I know some of you might think this is futile, but in making a choice between the 2 schools, I want to look at extra-curricular things. Since they are pretty much as good, and going to Columbia will not ensure me a job more than NYU especially in the current market, I want to know if one has a better atmosphere than the other one. Will Columbia not have a much more competitive and less friendly atmosphere than NYU? NYU just gives me the impression to be more "relaxed" and have students that do not take themselves too seriously. But then again...I don't know. Any thoughts?
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raji20
Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 29
NYU versus Columbia
Wed Mar 25, 2009 03:36 PM
DMM,
I have friends who have been to both and have good things to say about both schools. I know more about NYU than I do about Columbia. NYU has a more relaxed feel and a number of Centers/Research Institutes, etc. which might be something you should consider. Check out the faculty to see if there are some profs at either school you know, have heard of, want to be taught by, etc. Also, try to ascertain what courses are required for your LL.M., how many out of law courses you can take (if you are interested in that at all). I've lived in NYC for about 4 years and the neighbourhoods of the two schools are very different. NYU is in the center of the city and is very much a "city campus". Columbia is in Morningside Heights neighbourhood and is more of a "campus" set apart from the city (sort of). That might have a factor on where you live. For instance, if I was going to Columbia, I wouldn't live in Brooklyn (where I live now). Getting to NYU from Brooklyn is not a long commute. These are other things to think about. I don't think either school has a particularly heavy "competitive or unfriendly" atmosphere.
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cjoop
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 19
NYU versus Columbia
Thu Mar 26, 2009 06:36 PM
As a former NYU student (LLM in Corporation), I just would like say that the environment at NYU is really friendly. It is a great place to study and it is an amazing university. You will not regret if you chose NYU over Columbia. I have many friends that took this decision. I will not get into this nonsense of academic level… because you will see the reality for your self when you get here. Both schools are great, don’t worry….

Regarding the job question, it all depends where you come from. I am from Brazil. In my year everybody from Brazil that wanted to stay in NYC got a job in the US. But, I am talking about 2007 when the market was really good still. However, I cannot say the same about my fellows at Columbia. I know a couple of Brazilians that wanted to stay but did not get a job and just had to go home. However, the ones that went home got good jobs in Brazil.

The Europeans are the most wanted by employers, either by Americans or Europeans firms. No questions about that… so I guess this will not change in the following years.

The career service of NYU is incredible. I have no idea about the career service of Columbia. But, at NYU, if you ask for their help, you will get all the help you want and more. They are really committed in getting NYU students a good placement in the market.

I got into this LLMGUIDE to post for a friend that unfortunately just got rejected from NYU. I don’t usually follow the discussions, but wanted to say something positive about NYU when I read the posts of this forum.

I wish all of you a great LLM year either at Columbia or NYU!!!!

[Edited by cjoop on 26 Mar 2009]

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loop_
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 25
NYU versus Columbia
Thu Mar 26, 2009 09:42 PM
thanks cjoop!
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