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LL.M. Discussion Board > USA > Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20? 
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
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Hedek    Joined: 18 Mar 2009 Posts: 152 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
Hello fellow LLM-Guiders, while browsing the web, I stumbled upon a quite surprising website: www.auap.com/llm.htmlSun Apr 12, 2009 10:17 AM Has anyone heard of them? Let alone used their service? It looks similar to the service provided by LSAC only more expensive? llm.lsac.org/llm/logon/splash.aspx Now I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt... until I saw their "world's only LLM ranking"! Students who accepted Cornell's offer will be happy to know they're heading to the best LLM program in the USA! Yale only pales in comparison to such prestigious schools as Fordham, Boston University, Cardozo, or George Washington. Georgetown only ranks 20 apparently because "[it] is not recommended for bar examinations", why? because "[they] said [so] in their own pages"! The funny thing about Georgetown is they're simply being honest about it. Many courses will qualify for NY Bar eligibility as much as any other ABA accredited law school in the USA. GU is cautious enough to warn prospective international students that an LLM is not a sufficient and adequate preparation to the NY bar, especially when compared to JD students who spent the last 3 years studying American law. This warning applies to any other school, including HYS, but GU is the only school, AFAIK, that openly states so on its website. And Stanford? What a ridiculous school, it didn't even make it in the top 20! Surely their LLM program must be a joke. Now seriously, what's up with all these rankings? There's a lot that could be said about US News, and I'm among the most virulent ones in this board when it comes to criticizing them. But even I admit their ranking is rather accurate at predicting how much we'll be sought after by recruiters. Perhaps one day we'll have an honest ranking of LLM programs based on: applicants to class size ratio, acceptance ratio, accepted offers ratio, employment rate upon graduation, and perhaps NY bar passage rate. So just out of curiosity, has anyone used AUAP's service? If this ranking at least puts a smile on your face, then my thread won't be totally useless, and if it also prevents prospective students from potentially wasting $2500, I'll be even happier. [Edited by Hedek on 12 Apr 2009] |
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| Gregor2009 Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 548 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
Let's hope I get a Cornell offer later this week!Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:37 AM |
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| Hedek Joined: 18 Mar 2009 Posts: 152 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
And I'd also like to link to UChicago Professor Leiter's April 9th entry on US News imminent 2009 rankings:Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:06 AM leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2009/04/an-open… "When the new rankings come out in a couple of weeks, may I suggest that you not post the overall ranking. You all know the overall rank assigned to a school by U.S. News is meaningless, often perniciously so. It combines too many factors, in an inexplicable formula, and much of the underlying data isn't reliable, and some of it (e.g., expenditures on secretarial salaries and electriciy) isn't even relevant. You all know this. So don't report it. The fact that this garbage appears in a major 'news' magazine doesn't change the fact that it is garbage. Instead, let me suggest that if you want to blog about the rankings when they come out, write about some of the underlying data that speaks for itself: the reputational scores, for example, or the bar passage rates, or the numerical credentials of the students. Those have limitations too--the median of 500 is not really comparable to the median of 200; the reputation scores are not based on presenting evaluators with any information about the schools being evaluated; and so on--but one can at least say clearly what the limitations are, and one is not hostage either to the dishonesty of the schools "reporting" the data or the sheer idiocy of the U.S. News ranking formula." [Edited by Hedek on 12 Apr 2009] |
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Santa  Joined: 08 Jan 2009 Posts: 383 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
The auap ranking is just ridiculous :)Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:20 AM Just follow the USNews ranking and use it as you wish. |
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york  Joined: 04 Feb 2005 Posts: 111 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
A few years ago, AUAP couln't even spell the names of some schools in their "ranking": www.llm-guide.com/board/1676
Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:40 AM |
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| Llisbon Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 63 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
Obviously , this ranking is a complete fraudSun Apr 12, 2009 01:12 PM but what do you all think of the attached link?It would be interesting to get any opinions out there (sorry but the article is in Spanish) 3.bp.blogspot.com/_6ooPycs1Mok/ScY_2M262JI/AAAAAAA… [Edited by Llisbon on 12 Apr 2009] |
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| yasminm Joined: 03 Mar 2009 Posts: 106 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
My best guess is that the AUAP rankings are motivated by where their own students end up, i.e. making sure that they themselves make their students feel like they achieved something after using AUAP's services. It should be no surprise then that the first four universities are all universities that their students have entered into, with HLS and YLS lower down in the scale because although it would appear that their students were not admitted into either institution (see also www.auap.com/welcome_popup.html), any person worth his salt would know the rankings are clearly off if neither HLS or YLS are on it (though as one of you pointed out, its suprising, even if it were structured that way, that SLS was not on it).
Sun Apr 12, 2009 01:40 PM [Edited by yasminm on 12 Apr 2009] |
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koala  Joined: 16 Sep 2008 Posts: 169 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
Just one ranking among others...The truth is that none of these rankings is objective anyway but it is surprising that a university with such a reputable brand as Stanford is not listed. I know that LLMs cannot be ranked like undergraduate studies but in the end the prestige of your degree will be measured on the basis of your university's reputation...and for that matter it is hard to beat HYS...
Sun Apr 12, 2009 02:35 PM [Edited by koala on 12 Apr 2009] |
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| Hedek Joined: 18 Mar 2009 Posts: 152 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
Sun Apr 12, 2009 03:03 PM Obviously , this ranking is a complete fraudLisbon, this ranking, while unusual for Americans, is far from ridiculous from a European point of view. In no particular order, the 10 names listed by El Mundo are pretty much the most well known and respected law schools in Europe. The College of Europe (along with The Hague Academy of International law) is an extremely prestigious institution among non native English speaking European scholars. I'm a bit surprised by the absence of Oxbridge though. And the listing of Georgetown before other prestigious law schools e.g. UMichigan, UChicago, UPenn, or UVA confirms the prominent position of these universities inside the USA and their name brand deficit abroad. As unfair as it might be, being called "University of [state/city]" is a handicap. People have the impression they're generic state school and remember "first names" such as "Princeton, Cornell, Yale, etc." more easily. Fortunately, decent law firm recruiters recognize the true value of "University of" law schools so, except for showing off in foreign rankings, it's not really a problem. [Edited by Hedek on 12 Apr 2009] |
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| Llisbon Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 63 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
Hedek : I agree with you. I do not think this ranking is ridiculous. On the contrary, all the universities mentioned are prestigious and have well known LLM programs.Sun Apr 12, 2009 03:11 PM I was just interested in getting other opinions. |
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| Hedek Joined: 18 Mar 2009 Posts: 152 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
Sun Apr 12, 2009 03:21 PM Hedek : I agree with you. I do not think this ranking is ridiculous. On the contrary, all the universities mentioned are prestigious and have well known LLM programs. I've read the article, they do cite Oxford and Cambridge, but they don't explain why these two didn't make it in "el top ten"? Coming from El Mundo, I'm puzzled? What would be your explanation? Is it because they don't have real LLM programs? |
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| Llisbon Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 63 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
I'm puzzled as well. I think Cambridge has an LLM program. Oxford has a BCL and MPhil (although I am not sure). Anyway, I was glad they mentioned KCL in the top ten as I will be going there this coming year!
Sun Apr 12, 2009 03:30 PM |
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| applicant of law
Joined: 22 Jan 2008 Posts: 22 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
Sun Apr 12, 2009 06:16 PM I'm puzzled as well. I think Cambridge has an LLM program. Oxford has a BCL and MPhil (although I am not sure). Anyway, I was glad they mentioned KCL in the top ten as I will be going there this coming year! Kinda boring ranking. Without a reasoning in their resource, this can not be put too much weight. By the way, when is the us news ranking of this year coming out. We just want to see the us ranking. Other rankings can be supplementary. Moreover, students are judged by the us new ranlking instaed of the LLM ranking. Which law firm will watch this, and then appraise, you are good because you are a graduate from .....based on the LLM ranking. |
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| Santa Joined: 08 Jan 2009 Posts: 383 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
23rd of April :)
Sun Apr 12, 2009 07:59 PM |
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| Gloss Joined: 13 Oct 2007 Posts: 80 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
Please dont waste your time looking at this ranking.... we all know that the US News ranking is the only one that counts. Vault is starting to be considered, but not even close to US News. This ranking is a fraud, it does not explain the methodoly and does not give any information on how they reach the results. It is clear that they are including only the universities that they place their students in. Rankings should be considered not because we want, but because the market wants. All big law firms take the US News ranking into account. Unfortunately, you cant run from it if you want to work in the US.
Mon Apr 13, 2009 06:53 AM |
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| nicolas_a
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 47 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
auap is just a blatent fraud...Mon Apr 13, 2009 02:54 PM however, the press article from el mundo seems to be a quite accurate analysis... it may look like a blend of popularization and "brand over academics" but it's pretty relevant as far as europe is concerned |
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| nicolas_a
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 47 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
btw what's the difference between estados unidos & eeuu ?
Mon Apr 13, 2009 02:55 PM |
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| Hedek Joined: 18 Mar 2009 Posts: 152 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
Mon Apr 13, 2009 03:35 PM btw what's the difference between estados unidos & eeuu ? None. It's a latin heritage when turning plural words into acronmys. Same with "LLM", it's Legum Magister. Master of Laws hence the double LL. Had it been "Master of Law" it would be "LM". |
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| nicolas_a
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 47 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
I don't get why the press article from el mundo uses both actually !
Mon Apr 13, 2009 03:45 PM |
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| Gloss Joined: 13 Oct 2007 Posts: 80 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
This ranking from El Mundo seems interesting but only for Spanish lawyers. In some countries certain schools have more influence because their alumni is very strong. This is the case of Northwestern and Urbana-Champaign in Argentina, for example. For some reason, lots of people from Argentina join to these schools and important partners of big law firms are alumni of these schools. In the US, keep in mind that (unfortunately) the US News is The Ranking and it really works when you are trying to find a job. It is stupid, but its the truth...
Mon Apr 13, 2009 05:33 PM |
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| Hedek Joined: 18 Mar 2009 Posts: 152 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
Mon Apr 13, 2009 05:42 PM In the US, keep in mind that (unfortunately) the US News is The Ranking and it really works when you are trying to find a job. It is stupid, but its the truth...Here's a ranking I like: 1. Newsweek 2. Time Magazine 3. People Magazine 4. TV Guide 5. My Weekly Reader Third Tier: U.S. News and World Report Source: www.rankingusnews.com/ Lol. [Edited by Hedek on 13 Apr 2009] |
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| Gloss Joined: 13 Oct 2007 Posts: 80 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
Unfortunately, employers in the US dont think the same... the cut is clear when you are interviewing. Depending on the school ranking in the US News, law firms ask for higher grades and, in some cases, you need to be top 10% or even 5% of the class (even when you study with the JDs)... I have a friend from Mexico that went to Northwestern and could not find a job because he was not in the top 10%. Considering the current economic crisis, this will matter even more... if you are from Europe, it may not matter that much, because you may work in a US law firm in your country. So lots of other issue will be considered (your home country background) and the school is only a plus.
Mon Apr 13, 2009 06:18 PM |
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| LawyerinUSA
Joined: 16 Feb 2009 Posts: 46 |
Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?
Wed May 20, 2009 04:54 PM Here's a ranking I like: I agree 100% with Hedek's ranking!!!! As an American lawyer (and partner in a law firm), I can honestly state that the best lawyers I have met earned their JD's from non-top-20 law schools. They could run circles around the Ivy League graduates I've worked with over the years. The practice of law, ultimately, has no resemblence to law school. It is what you make of it. I've observed several "top" grads fizzle out because they could not handle the pressure of law practice; indeed, they were brilliant, but their brilliance did not translate into the ability to be a successful practitioner. [Edited by LawyerinUSA on 20 May 2009] |
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