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What do European LLM Programs Think of

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AlexIL

Joined: 11 May 2009
Posts: 27
What do European LLM Programs Think of
Thu Jun 04, 2009 01:27 AM
Hey guys,

***Intwannabe: Let me preface this by saying, I know absolutely nothing about how any of these programs would be viewed in the US, except as Iowa said, that UK degrees seem to be valued. However, I wouldn't go to the UK unless it was to one of the top universities - it is not really at the exotic end of international experience and neither is it at the cheaper end. You're sort of going out there, but not quite. I understand that there's calculation and prediction involved here - but you only live once.

Another decision would probably be between going straight to an International Environmental Law course or going for a Public International Law course & looking for electives. You sound like you're really looking for International Environmental Law.

Really, you should look for a place that not only has a great reputation but is evocative in terms of the environment in particular - like International and Environmental Law at the University of Iceland, or Energy and Environmental Law at Leuven. The University of Oslo Public International Law program lets you specialise in Environmental Law.

***MM: You seem to have narrowed it down really well. It's not hard to figure out the top universities/programs in these countries - looking through a few rankings and discussion threads. Good luck!
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Matches Malone

Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 19
What do European LLM Programs Think of
Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:42 PM
Theoretically, if I got my LLM from one of these schools and wanted to stay and live and work in that community, is that possible? Or, do we have to ship up and ship out after graduation?
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AlexIL

Joined: 11 May 2009
Posts: 27
What do European LLM Programs Think of
Fri Jun 05, 2009 02:16 AM
Do you have an EU passport, or a parent from Europe so you can try get your hands on one? If not, I guess it's a matter of researching the working visa requirements.

By the way, what made you rule out Denmark and Germany?
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Matches Malone

Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 19
What do European LLM Programs Think of
Fri Jun 05, 2009 02:31 PM
Well, I ruled out Denmark because Copenhagen was a 2 year program, and I was told that there were very few quality programs in English that were not overly expensive in Germany... was I misinformed? Can you suggest any schools there? Thanks!
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AlexIL

Joined: 11 May 2009
Posts: 27
What do European LLM Programs Think of
Fri Jun 05, 2009 02:53 PM
Hey, yes there are huge variations in price in Germany (I've come across everything from $0 to $40,000) and a lot of universities (which are quite difficult to rate - apparently because quality's tightly controlled and they're all pretty good). Still, if you're paying for the course anyway, it can't hurt to have a look at least at the courses going for similar prices or less.

As you can see, I don't have much advice beyond motivation letters, Sweden and the Netherlands, but hopefully there are other people reading this thread who have suggestions.

Al
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Matches Malone

Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 19
What do European LLM Programs Think of
Fri Jun 05, 2009 07:18 PM
Thanks, Al! By the way, what do you think of the Vrije Universiteit (VU) Amsterdam? I've recently become very interested in this school. Thoughts?
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AlexIL

Joined: 11 May 2009
Posts: 27
What do European LLM Programs Think of
Sat Jun 06, 2009 01:12 AM
Hey MM. VU Amsterdam is a strange case. It's rating isn't great - it's well outside the top 100 and isn't better rated in any single subject area. Yet, people seem really enthusiastic about the place. A Dutch friend of mine who's from Amsterdam said it was just about as well respected as the Uni of Amsterdam (well within the top 100) locally, and others on this forum have talked about its location and business/professional contacts. cf. a place like Maastricht which has a better rating than VU and yet no one raves about the place, including my local friend. [Keeping in mind my friend studied IT, not law, so this info isn't right on the money for us.]

My personal rating for the Netherlands, which is a combination of reading about the courses, ratings and talking to people would be:
1 - 5: Leiden, Utrecht, Groningen, Amsterdam, VU Amsterdam
6 - 7 (not very well rated but stand-outs in particular areas): Erasmus Rotterdam, Tilburg
8 & onwards: Maastricht, Nijmegen etc

That said, I think that rating would move around a bit with the area of law you're after & what you think of the content.

Al
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Matches Malone

Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 19
What do European LLM Programs Think of
Sat Jun 06, 2009 01:52 AM
Alex, great info; thanks for that!

I was told that there are some schools in Germany that offer free tuition, but I have not been able to find out what schools those are or if their programs are offered in English. Do you know? Thanks agin!
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AlexIL

Joined: 11 May 2009
Posts: 27
What do European LLM Programs Think of
Sat Jun 06, 2009 02:06 AM
Hey MM... I was thinking of applying for International Relations/European Studies/Public Administration type MAs if I didn't get into a LLM, so the free ones I remember were MAs at Jacobs Bremen (usually very expensive, but there's the one free program) and Frije Universitat Berlin.

I do also remember seeing a few where you just had to pay the student union fee of around 200 - 500 euro. I used the search engine here: www.daad.de/deutschland/studienangebote/06005.en.h…

I'm also assuming you've already found www.studyinsweden.se

Al
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Matches Malone

Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 19
What do European LLM Programs Think of
Sat Jun 06, 2009 02:50 AM
Thanks man, I'll check it out!

To Al and others, how "hard" is it to get into Leiden? What percent of applicants do they accept? Based on my resume (listed elsewhere in this thread), what are my chances?
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AlexIL

Joined: 11 May 2009
Posts: 27
What do European LLM Programs Think of
Sat Jun 06, 2009 09:57 AM
I think it's worth giving Leiden a go & the application fee shouldn't scare you, especially if you're going for the PIL or EU Law (I'm not sure how much more competitive the Adv. LLMs are). Not sure If you've had a look at the online application process (here: koala.leidenuniv.nl/iooa/oa/Index.php), but they specifically ask for your CV (a few programs out there don't, which makes me think they rely much more on transcripts than on demonstrated commitment) & they also have an additional step where you are able to upload up to 5 additional documents which you think strengthen your application + a description of why you're uploading them. For me, this gives you free reign to show your strengths & also makes me feel like they'll take the time to consider you as an individual.

(I think the application fee in this sense is helpful rather than harmful - they probably receive fewer applications as people who aren't confident of their chances choose not to apply; they know you really want to be there; they can afford to take the time to consider your application thoroughly; & they will take the time to contact you & have you add any documents they think are missing before just rejecting an application. You won't find the same with Sweden, where the application & education is free, there are hundreds of thousands of applications & no one gets more than a glance.)
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Matches Malone

Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 19
What do European LLM Programs Think of
Sat Jun 06, 2009 04:43 PM
Thanks, Al! You are a wealth of information. Now, here's a question for you...

Are these schools focused on only academic and business-like accomplishments, or should I inform them of some of my unique experiences that are completely unrelated to the law?

For example, after college and before getting my JD I worked for years as an actor, and did very well for myself. Would they see this as interesting and compelling, or as frivolous and lackadaisical? American law schools would value this some, and I made it a serious part of my application when applying for my JD. However, I can't get the German stereotype out of my head... (Business business, work work!).

What do you think?
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AlexIL

Joined: 11 May 2009
Posts: 27
What do European LLM Programs Think of
Sun Jun 07, 2009 02:12 AM
Hey, I don't think you should shy away from using it. Leaving out something big might not look obvious to you when you read over your CV/letter, but might really show through to the person reading it. The gap can end up as a lot of time unaccounted for or a gap where your personality should be. If (like me) you can't let your transcript speak for you, you've got to throw your strengths into the assessment.

I think the image of Northern Europeans as overly serious is not really accurate (especially a couple of beers down). What I would say about them culturally, is that they prefer a good argument presented in a measured way and with humility, over any sort of exaggeration, boasting or content unnecessary to support the argument. So, I think you can use anything at all but don't leave it to them to make the connections for you (of how what you've told them makes you a good candidate). The aim here is never to say "I did X" but to say "doing X has developed my attribute Y which makes me a good candidate for this program because..." ****How**** does X make me a good candidate?

It's also good to remember that they have a few letters to read and lot of them start with "Since I was a small child..." and go on to, chronologically, detail a lot of (sometimes overly personal) banality. Yes, they're interested in finding out about "you" but most of us are quite dull. You've got to find a way to mix it up a bit and make them feel like they couldn't have read the thing with their eyes closed. If you've got a personality, show it to them rather than telling them it's there. If you're passionate about something, make them passionate about it too and make them see how it captures your attention - just don't say "I am so passionate about Z".

Hope that helps,
Al

[Edited by AlexIL on 07 Jun 2009]
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Matches Malone

Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 19
What do European LLM Programs Think of
Sun Jun 07, 2009 04:57 AM
Al, thanks for that great advice. Thanks, brother.
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AlexIL

Joined: 11 May 2009
Posts: 27
What do European LLM Programs Think of
Sun Jun 07, 2009 05:15 AM
Sister. :)

Good luck with it.
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Matches Malone

Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 19
What do European LLM Programs Think of
Sun Jun 07, 2009 07:02 AM
Sorry!

Thanks again!
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