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Any personal experiences with the following universities?

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capa


Joined: 10 Oct 2005
Posts: 164
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Sat Oct 29, 2005 02:31 PM
Hello. Apologies for the continued posts, I am trying to choose a "top 5" list and feel I can only do this with "local" European advice. I would highly appreciate any help and thank-you very much in advance for any advice. This is quite a hard decision!

Where possible, I would like to know:
1) Have you had any personal experiences with the following? Would you recommend any?
2) I know it is hard to "rank" European universities, but, is it possible to highlight which are more reputable, and, which are not as desireable, so to speak.
3) Would they differ in relation to entrance requirements? By this I mean, would they have different "standards" - which would be hardest to get into?
4) Which would you choose?
5) Would you add any others? (English LLM's only)
6) Would you consider any of the following Australian univesrities to be more "desireable"?

Okay, to the universities:
Catholic University Leuven
Leiden University
Maastricht University
Stockholm University
University of Amsterdam
University of Helsinki
University of Lund
University of Oslo
Uppsala University
Utrecht University

The Australian universities include the following:

Australian National University
University of Melbourne
Monash University
University of New South Wales
University of Sydney
University of Queensland

Again, thank-you very very much for any guidance and advice. I am unfamiliar with the general view towards the repututation of certain universities in Europe, and, also wonder whether any Australian universities are demed to be reputable in Europe.

Many thanks for any replies.
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Nicolas II

Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 9
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Sat Oct 29, 2005 02:56 PM
Hello,

I will respond very quickly on your question for now but if I have some more time I will give more information.

I am a student of the university of Leuven and it is, in my modest opinion, a good university, also the one in Leiden and Utrecht.
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esha

Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 79
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Mon Oct 31, 2005 08:10 AM
You should first zero in the jurisdiction you want to practice in.., you should keep in mind that the jurisdiction in which you pursue your
LL.M. will ultimately be the jurisdiction in which you could practice...and then look at the rankings
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capa


Joined: 10 Oct 2005
Posts: 164
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Mon Oct 31, 2005 09:11 AM
Thanks. I wish to practice in Australia - the LLB is to practice. The LLM is to improve my skills (mostly academic) and gain an international perspective. I am told it does not matter what jurisdiction you undertake the LLM, so long as it is at a reputable university.
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phil55

Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 1
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Mon Oct 31, 2005 02:13 PM
Hi mate,

Regarding Australian universiites - UNSW and USyd are the two best in Sydney. There is some debate as to which is better. USyd is more old school English style, UNSW is probably a bit more modern. The other difference is that UNSW has a lot of Asian students, whereas USyd is more preppy white boys.

In Melbourne, University of Melbourne is meant to, as a whole, have a higher intelligence level amongst its students than Monash. Within the law faculty though, I don´t think there is too much difference between them.

ANU is overrated. Plus it is located in the single worst city in Australia - Canberra. Not recommended! University of Queensland would be OK, but seriously, you would be crazy to go there over Sydney or Melbourne.

My recommendation overall - go to the University of Sydney!
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esha

Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 79
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Mon Oct 31, 2005 02:35 PM
You are probably right there..but i believe the place one wants to work has to be definately taken in to consideration while deciding on the prospective LLM ...if u planning to work in Europe then u shud go for UK law schools ..on the other hand if u want to settle in states or elsewhere then US wud be a better choice...and In asia and australia--then one cud go for an LLM in Australia
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capa


Joined: 10 Oct 2005
Posts: 164
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Wed Nov 02, 2005 02:32 AM
Thanks for the replies. Yeah, i'm an Aussie and know ANU is top with the next being Melb, then Syd, then, the rest of the G8... I wonder how those Australian uni's compare with the EU ones I listed?

Also, can anyone please let me know what they think of those EU universities?

Does anyone know of any other LLM or law studies forums?

Thanks very much.
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BGB

Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 1
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:56 PM
Hi, I honestly don't know how the Aussi Unis compare to the European ones. If there are international comparisons available they focus on the general performance and quality of a university. A good example is Leiden University. Its Law Faculty has huge problems. They have huge numbers of students and a relative small number of faculty. In several independent surveys Leiden's Law School is rated as one of the worst (in both education and research). Leiden is one of the oldest universities in the Netherlands and in most fields its quality is recognized. This is not shown in the international general surveys. In the Netherlands the Law School of Tilburg University has the best overall rating (a number of years already; a annual survey by the Elsevier Journal). Tilburg is my alma mater, so I may be a bit biased.
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Mehmet

Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 11
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Mon Nov 13, 2006 04:06 PM
Dear friends!
I am doing some research on Tilburg university.
1) Do you know any updated international rankings of Tilburg Law? Very important!
2) Is there anybody who knows Tilburg well? As I study law, my wife is planning to improve her English and German by taking some language courses, maybe at the university? Are there such facilities in town or at the university? This is also very important!

Thanks for any replies...
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Mehmet

Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 11
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Mon Nov 13, 2006 04:11 PM
Hi there!
Do you know which universities are best to study "European Law" in United States? Note: Ooops, I am not a law student..! Unfortunately! I have graduated from economics. But my current profession is highly related with EU law..

Any university suggestions?? :)

Thanks for any replies....
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Joanna

Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 5
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Mon Nov 13, 2006 06:31 PM
Dear Memet,

Here is the link to top school law ranking placing Tilburg University at the first place the-brooks-blog.blogspot.com/2006/07/top-20-non-us…
I heard it is also placing the one of the top position according to ssrn. Check the web. Faculty of law in Tilburg is one of the best is Europe.
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Russ


Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 198
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Mon Nov 13, 2006 08:48 PM
The problem with a ranking based on the number of downloads from/uploads to the Social Science Research Network (SSRN) is that the SSRN is only targeting the English-speaking legal community. This is why law schools countries like e.g. Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Japan do (almost) not appear in the ranking you cited. In these countries, there is not much necessity to write/read articles in English as national (and international) law is being discussed in the national languages. In these countries, SSRN only matters to some internationally focused institutions like the Max Planck Institutes (which are not actually law schools...). In Netherlands, Belgium, Israel and Scandinavian countries it is more common to publish academic articles in English.

Therefore, I do not think that a ranking based on the SSRN is of much value for non-US/non-UK law schools. On the other hand, you can be sure to get a good level of English at schools in the Netherlands, Israel and in the Scandinavian countries.
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Russ


Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 198
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Mon Nov 13, 2006 08:53 PM
Also, the methodology is disputable:

"Third, it is unclear how much these figures depend upon one person. It is the case that most of Tilburg's 5,956 downloads come from just one of its 20 represented staff (i.e., the 3,338 of Hopt mentioned above). A few law schools only have a handful of people represented: Catholic University of Leuven (5), Max Planck (5), UCL (7), Ghent (9), Bologna (4), Manchester (9), Amsterdam (7), Bar-Ilan (9), and Frankfurt (2). Only Genoa had one person listed."

the-brooks-blog.blogspot.com/2006/07/top-20-non-us…
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ntakb

Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 1
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:46 AM
I am glad to see discussion of some of my blog's posts ("The Brooks Blog": http//the-brooks-blog.blogspot.com ). I must say that I entirely agree with the criticisms levied at the SSRN. As I note (and am quoted), much of the download figures are for a small percentage of the dept or a few key persons---the vast majority are left out. My own university---Newcastle Univ, UK---cracks the top 15 if it includes my own downloads, but bottom of the pile without: we have two persons on SSRN, one of whom left for Durham Law School(!).

The SSRN provides some fun navel gazing. Whenever I ask myself why in the world I've spent so much time trying to wrie papers (worrying if anyone ever reads them), I can go to SSRN and smile when I see they are at least been downloaded and looked at. I also receive some excellent comments on blogs and by email, as well as offers to publish papers I've posted. It is an excellent tool for getting your work known.

However, the fact that a dept scores high in my monthly rankings is no guarantee that the dept is better than others. However, those that make the top 10 or 20 are often (independently) thought to belong in such a list. Top programmes are always represented, but I wouldn't worry if someone is 7 or 9 or 1 (or how the changes go month to month). Hope some of you enjoy the blog...
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AiryFairy

Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 1
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Mon Jul 16, 2007 04:46 AM
Hey capa i just finished my MA in international law at ANU and I must say the professors there are the most qualified and helpful individuals I have ever met. The law faculty is quite tough but in the end it really pays off to know that you graduated from Australia's most reputable university. Whoever suggests that ANU is over-ranked is just jealous ;)

The downside is Canberra is quite isolated and boring (and a lot of the people there are weird!!) I'm from Sydney and I'm very outgoing so it was quite tough for me to get used to Canberra (and the majority of the nerds at ANU) but once you make friends then it makes things much easier and the public transport system is great. By the way, Canberra is NOT as cheap as people might think, it's actually more expensive than Sydney. You would be better off applying for on campus accommodation - but makes sure you do so as soon as you receive an offer.

If you have anymore questions don't hesitate to ask!
Good luck!
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jason_d

Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 5
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Wed Aug 08, 2007 07:13 AM
With regards to the law schools located in NSW and Canberra... if you're interested in the prestige of the school in terms of student status hierarchies - the best indicator would probably be the university entry cut-off scores posted by the UAC. Because Canberra and NSW both use the same hsc and university entry methods - their cut-offs can be directly compared.

According to the UAI the most pretigious law schools among students have always been Sydney Univeristy and UNSW. The entry cut-off scores for high school leavers in 2007 of both universities were 99.55 and 99.20 respectively. The cut offs for UTS was 97.00 and ANU: 95.00 (ANU still had vacancies listed which means their cut-off was arbitarily listed).

Thus it appears that USYD and UNSW attract the brightest students that score in the top 0.8% in the state (According to the Board of Studies, only about 800 students score over 99). Mind you - the UAI/TER cut-off both these schools have ridden in the 99.00+ band for some time now, so you can imagine the intellectual calibre of their alumni base.

Indeed, there's often the implicit thought (among my law colleagues anyway and yes this will sound horribly snotty) that anyone who didn't attended USyd or UNSW probably didn't make the high entry cut and had to settle for lower second grade cut-off options i.e. UTS, MQ or ANU.

I personally attended UNSW and I can say that it was an intense and great learning experience. I managed to fast track my 5 year combined degree over 4 years by taking summer courses and even had the opportunity to take one English taught course in Beijing which was great!! The senior electives had smaller student numbers and the lecturers were highly regarded academics with substantial industry experience. A lot of the tutors were also law professionals from the city who taught part-time.
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kaka

Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 2
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Thu Aug 09, 2007 02:24 AM

Indeed, there's often the implicit thought (among my law colleagues anyway and yes this will sound horribly snotty) that anyone who didn't attended USyd or UNSW probably didn't make the high entry cut and had to settle for lower second grade cut-off options i.e. UTS, MQ or ANU.


Hi Jason, could you please elaborate on this comment? Where do you work and in what area of law? Where did your colleagues study law and how long have they been practising?
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jason_d

Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 5
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Thu Aug 09, 2007 01:46 PM
Elaborate? Hmmm did you complete your schooling in NSW or Canberra or attend UNSW or Usyd - if not it's hard to do so... I know it sounds terrible but honestly it's a 'known' snotty thing. Quite a number of the folks in my high school unfortunately didn't make the cut had to enrol into UTS or MQ. Of course there are those that did make the cut and opted for UTS or MQ because they liked their campus vibe (though not many that I know of - and no one that I know of went to the ANU).

LIke all undergrads at UNSW, I completed a combined degree - the fast track option is strongly discouraged but you can do so via clever manipulation of your timetable by taking summer courses - it's HECS at UNSW but upfront charged at USyd. That's another good thing about UNSW all summer and exchange courses can be HECS.

Many of the folks who study law (and I mean a lot!!) don't go on to pursue legal professions per se. I'm currently working in risk analytics at a major accounting firm.


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jason_d

Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 5
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Thu Aug 09, 2007 01:47 PM
According to the UAI the most pretigious law schools among students have always been Sydney Univeristy and UNSW. The entry cut-off scores for high school leavers in 2007 of both universities were 99.55 and 99.20 respectively. The cut offs for UTS was 97.00 and ANU: 95.00 (ANU still had vacancies listed which means their cut-off was arbitarily listed).

Thus it appears that USYD and UNSW attract the brightest students that score in the top 0.8% in the state (According to the Board of Studies, only about 800 students score over 99). Mind you - the UAI/TER cut-off both these schools have ridden in the 99.00+ band for some time now, so you can imagine the intellectual calibre of their alumni base.
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kaka

Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 2
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Wed Aug 22, 2007 01:16 AM
Elaborate? Hmmm did you complete your schooling in NSW or Canberra or attend UNSW or Usyd - if not it's hard to do so... I know it sounds terrible but honestly it's a 'known' snotty thing. Quite a number of the folks in my high school unfortunately didn't make the cut had to enrol into UTS or MQ. Of course there are those that did make the cut and opted for UTS or MQ because they liked their campus vibe (though not many that I know of - and no one that I know of went to the ANU).

LIke all undergrads at UNSW, I completed a combined degree - the fast track option is strongly discouraged but you can do so via clever manipulation of your timetable by taking summer courses - it's HECS at UNSW but upfront charged at USyd. That's another good thing about UNSW all summer and exchange courses can be HECS.

Many of the folks who study law (and I mean a lot!!) don't go on to pursue legal professions per se. I'm currently working in risk analytics at a major accounting firm.




Well it sounds fairly anecdotal to me and probably is a result of your own subjective feelings about the culture of your university, feelings which you may share with your fellow alumni but may not exist in the minds of employers.
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jason_d

Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 5
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Sat Sep 01, 2007 06:59 AM
Sure it may not exist in the minds of all employers ~ but you'll have to be a fairly incompetent human resource professional in the NSW region not to know that UNSW and USyd are the toughest programs to get into. However, it might be that the hiring professional attended say MQ or UTS and that in itself might give you an implicit edge over other candidates since they may have a better understanding of the syllabus at those universities .

I'm not saying UNSW or USyd are better (no one can make that judgement unless they've trial all the programs). However, from an acceptance standpoint, UNSW and USyd are indeed the two hardest Law schools to get into - which in turns signifies their popularity and prestige. That in itself is not a subjective interpretation. And for those that get in - it's an explicit indication of their HSC results. For example, why is Harvard and Yale Law so popular? Because it's a known fact that people who make the cut into Harvard and Yale are intellectuals. Those schools attract, accepts, and graduates the top students in the country...

Indeed my experiences are anecdotal - this is because the initial post asked for our own experiences with the various universities... As I only attended USyd and UNSW, I can only offer my personal opinions of those two universities and the culture that exists there... Also since you asked for an elaboration ~ that's what I gave.

Like I mentioned earlier - each university offers a different learning experience. That's why it's important to visit the campus itself and get a general feel of the environment that you will be studying in.

Final post ~ Good Luck!!
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lawmann

Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 11
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:54 AM
Hi,

Allow me to express my views on the current debate for whatever it is worth. I think I am qualified to comment having amassed 6 law degrees from UK including 4 LL.Ms.

Firstly, as far as European Law Schools are concerned, the University of Utrecht is the 2nd top ranked European University being placed at NO.42 in the World Ranking 2007. The top European University for 2007 World Ranking is University of Paris 06 at NO.39

Secondly, it is a universal known fact ( and elementary if I may add) that the LL.B is the most important undergraduate law degree which determines where and which jurisiction one wishes to practice law;

Thirdly, the LL.M does not add anything to the LL.B other than to enhance one's standing and give colour to one's CV. So it is important to choose a good law school of repute. You can take the cue from the Rhodes Scholars who normally go to the Universities of Cambridge, Oxford, Harvard & Yale or even Columbia. An LL.M from any one of these world class law schools will surpass 2 or more LL.Ms from other less prestigious law schools whether Europe or elsewhere. The rationale is simple. It is not the type of LL.M that is important. Who cares? It is secondary. What is important is the branding or privilege that one has attended Harvard, Cambridge..and so forth.
For e.g. If you put the "dunhill" brand on a cheap and loosy cotton shirt made in Timbuktu, it is still undoubtedly a dunhill shirt. Who cares about the material? dunhill is dunhill. So Cambridge is cambridge and Harvard is Harvard. In Hong Kong for e.g. if you apply for entry to the PCLL course ( equivalent to the Aussie GDLP), and everything being equal, a candidate with a 3rd class law degree from the University of Cambridge will be given priority for entry as opposed to someone with a 1st class law degree from a less prestigious University;

Fourthly, there are excellent lawyers and QCs with only the LL.B but no LL.Ms;

Fifthly, other than the University, in choosing an appropriate LL.M, go for a practice oriented one like the LL.M in Trial Advocacy offered by the Temple University, USA reputed to be the best in its class, if advocacy is your calling;

Sixthly, as far as Aussie Law Schools are concerned, as long as you choose one from the Group of 8, you can't go wrong. Not the others outside the group of 8. Melbourne and ANU are tops. Between these 2, it all depends on whether you prefer studying in Melbourne or Canberra. If you want to study in Sydney, then University of Sydney is the undisputed choice . Nothing comes close in Sydney. But if you like the sunshine coast and Australia Zoo, then the University of Queensland is the undisputed choice. In terms of ranking , UQ may even better Sydney. If you are thinking of New Zealand, then it has to be either the University of Auckland or the University of Otago. I would opt for Otago as it is NZ's 1st and oldest university with a history of 134 years, and a truly National University with campuses in every major NZ city;

Cheers.
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KVC

Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Posts: 37
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Mon Dec 10, 2007 05:24 AM
Hi lawman,

Reading ur 'quite sensible and logical' reply....may I ask...that wats ur take on....

1. LLM in a good enough US law school(like Georgetown in DC) vs LLM at the Melbourne Law School.

2. LLM in one of the top US law schools(like NYU, CLS. UPENN) vs LLM at the Melbourne Law School

3. LLM at the NYU@NUS program vs Melbourne Law School.

I have to make the abobe choices on a variety of factors like cost involved, what the program will fetch me in return(monitory) etc.

I am Indian and I dont plan working in US (considering how impossible it is to get a job there). What I am looking at is working in Australia, Hong kong...may be UK. I am very keen on the NYU@NUS as there are chances of getting a high scholarship there....but then again ppl are saying that they are unsure about the market value of the program.

By the ways I am looking at specialising in Commercial Laws only. I have already received an admission letter from Georgetown...but then I am being told that its not worth spending that much on. (Remember the Indian- USD excahnge rate is a killer). I really am keen on Melbourne too...but I dont want to do an LLM that may restrict me to a particular territory.

Im pity confused...

Thanks.
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lawmann

Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 11
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Mon Dec 10, 2007 09:32 AM
Hi, KVC

I am glad to advise.

The University of Melbourne is an excellent Law School. I am told by the former SG of Australia, Dr Gavan Griffith QC to whom I am acquainted that Melbourne U is arguably the best Law School in the Asia Pacific and can rival Harvard.

However, if your 1st degree LL.B is already from Australia, you may not wish to take another LL.M from Australia. But then again, if you intend to work in Australia, you will be well advised to stick with Melbourne U because of its ranking in Australia.

But if you want an overseas experience, then Georgetown in DC is a reasonably good choice provided you can stomach the high costs of an American legal education and provided also that you cannot get yourself admitted into Harvard or Yale. If you can get yourself admitted into Harvard or Yale, then of course Harvard or Yale is the natural choice over Melbourne U. Nothing to ponder. Harvard is the world 's undisputed No.1 followed by Yale. The others are Cambridge or Oxford. The Cambridge LL.M is easy to get in. Oxford is perhaps more difficult as its BCL is reknowned.

If you talk of any other USA law schools v Melbourne other than Harvard or Yale , I would suggest you stick to Melbourne U. You have to note that Georgetown is not that top ranking in USA. Universities like stanford , UCLA or Berkerley Boalt Hall or even Chicago may be better known and ranks better than Georgetown. Then there is the cost factor too. If you are prepared to spend that kind of money to attend Georgetown, then you might as well opt for the Ivy League Universities that have a better ranking than Georgetown.

In my view, between NYU@NUS v Melbourne, I would go for NYU@NUS without any hesitation because:-
[1] cost economical;
[2] NUS was ranked No.20 in World Ranking 2006 ahead of even Melbourne + NYU is an Ivy League Law School;
[3] You get to have 2 LL.Ms in 10 months I believe instead of just one;
[4] the Singapore NUS environment is highly competitive and if you can survive the NYU@NUS, you can survive in any jurisdiction you choose to practise;
[5] Where in the world can you obtain 2 LL.Ms in 10 months or so;
[6] Singapore is an ultra efficient City State,. They invest in brain power. Just look at the profile of the NUS law lecturers. I think 90% has doctorates. For those without PhDs, the minimum is 2 LL.Ms and from top ranked universities too; and
[7] Admission to NUS is based on merit and not colour or creed.

But if you are thinking of practising law in Hong Kong, then you may wish to consider the University of Hong Kong which is highly regarded and ranked too.

All said, my choice is NYU@NUS. If you are offered a scholarship here, then grab it without hesitation. It would be downright stupid to reject .

The market value of the LL.M is secondary. It is the overseas experience that counts. And legal studies in USA is certainly an eye opener. As I have said, if you can stomach the costs.

My private e-mail is: pklim@pd.jaring.my

I welcome private discussions.

Hope that helps.
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RogueAcademic

Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 10
Any personal experiences with the following universities?
Mon Dec 10, 2007 04:21 PM

[7] Admission to NUS is based on merit and not colour or creed.


So which universities admit students based on 'colour and creed'?
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