http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599 en Intercollegiate LLM To End - LLM GUIDE Discussion Board Wed, 11 Jan 2006 05:47:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9599 To those of you thinking about doing the London LLM please be advised next year is the last year to do it. Queen Mary, King's and University College are all going their seperate ways with separate LLM programs. Details are still being negotiated. Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:32:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9603 Where did you get this information, do you have a link? Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:41:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9607 About time too. How do you know that this is true? Thu, 12 Jan 2006 06:55:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9630 I'm currently in the LLM programme. -------------------- About time too. -------------------- I totally disagree with that statement. None of the universities involved have the resources to offer anything other than narrow, specialized postgraduate degrees. I shrudder to think what my experience would be like here if I were limited to one universities courses, libraries or other facilities. IMHO the program currently offers things Cambridge and Oxford can not because of the breadth of the program. Eliminate this and you have four different and distinct programmes competing with regional U.K. universities. Thu, 12 Jan 2006 19:02:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9652 What's the point of doing an LLM if it's not a narrow or specialised degree? That surely is the whole point of doing an LLM - to gain expertise in a particular subject. An LLM is not the fourth year of an LLB. What I dislike about the intercollegiate LLM is the different standards of teaching between the separate institutions. In any event, you wouldn't be that limited. You'd have your college library, and the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies, Senate House library, Inn library (if you're a member of one), plus loads of public libaries like the British Library. Fri, 13 Jan 2006 01:44:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9659 "What's the point of doing an LLM if it's not a narrow or specialised degree?" The world today does not fit into the neat compartmentalized world of British academic divisions. Can you really become an expert in IP law as it is practised today without doing a bit of computer/internet law? How about throwing human rights into the field? You need to study the media? In London you can do the copyright course at all 4 schools but internet law is only at QMUL, electronic media law at King's and freedom of expression human rights pops up at UCL. The beauty of London is that you can create your own specialization. The combination above yields an LLM in IP law...without the patent or trade mark or design law most IP programs will force you to take. If you're aiming for the media why waste your time in patent class? "What I dislike about the intercollegiate LLM is the different standards of teaching between the separate institutions" Having been here for three months what I most dislike is the different standards of teaching within institutions. You can get great profs like Jeremy Phillips and Adrian Sterling teaching at Queen Mary and absolute disasters (names protected to preserve my anonymity) at UCL. I wish all the instructors could speak academic English...they don't. Then the hidden secret: a lot of the students are not up to standard. We're three months into the year and some haven't a clue as to what Westlaw or Lexis are. They're still studying their London A to Z. I wish I was making this up. If you are paying overseas tuition and can breathe...well, I suppose breathing may be option if you can pay the tuition. There are a few students who enroll in October, follow the reading on the syllabus and show up for exams. In terms of libraries...I have not been to the SOAS library but the other three are not particularly good for law. IALS would be nice if they had the books they claim they have. Interlibrary loans are not automatic as LLM students are not considered research students. I've managed to get a readers pass to Cambridge (undergraduate connection); it's a big advantage for me. Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:28:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9674 I take your point. Each to his own. "Having been here for three months what I most dislike is the different standards of teaching within institutions...then the hidden secret: a lot of the students are not up to standard." Yeah, well, what do you expect. It's London after all. You pays your money and you takes your chance. "If you are paying overseas tuition and can breathe..." I also agree. It's widely known that every UK institution is crying out for non-EU students so that they can charge them the full whack. This is true also - and quite unbelievably - of the BVC. There's a girl in my group from Pakistan who can barely speak English. And she's studying to become a Barrister! Sat, 14 Jan 2006 03:02:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9688 "There's a girl in my group from Pakistan who can barely speak English. And she's studying to become a Barrister!" It doesn't surprise me. I have one professor whose grasp of the English language is suspect. He has trouble with he and she all those "complicated" genders. "Ah" is the most common word in his vocabulary. He mumbles in Greek, his native tounge. At times it seems surreal: a poor English speaker with no interest in lecturing (it interrupts his research) speaking about European law to a room full of poor English speakers from Commonwealth countries who seem to have little interest in the subject. The apathy of the students feeds into the disinterest of the professor in a sort of downward spiral. In my other classes I find the professors having to slow down the teaching to the level of the students thus making it very boring for those of us ready to be taught at the postgraduate level. In this class, though, the guy could start reading the telephone directory and I doubt anyone would notice or care. I feel sorry for the girl wanting to be a barrister or some of the students in my classes here. Ten thousand quid for...nothing they can benefit from. Sat, 14 Jan 2006 14:00:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9695 Dear Turkued. I have no doubt that your Greek professor is illiterate. I would like to inform you,though,that english genders as "he"and"she" are not THAT complicated for a Greek person. This man may be silly but, after all, it was a British University that made him a professor and allowed him to teach you. Concerning the foreign students. I understand this is a problem for you. Unfortunately, this is the price you pay for your language being internatinal and necessary for everything. Sine qua non. I hope to be admitted next year to London LLM. I am really eager to come to your beautiful country and I promise I'll work on my english.Cheers! Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:40:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9696 Don't worry, some classes are excellent and academic challenging. Being currently at UCL, I can tell you that the Compared and Secured Transactions class taught by Michael Bridge is really tricky, technical and academic challenging. A true postgraduate degree class...You can also think about attending European Financial Regulations with M Dalhuisen at KCL, who is teaching pursuant to the Socrates way some useful concept in Financial or commercial Law. The Torts Class at UCL taught by M Markesinis, Insolvency Law, Banking Law at KCL, Trust Law at KCL, etc.. are very satisfactory, i.e the content is interesting, tough and useful, and teachers excellent. Of course, not all classes at London University LLM are interesting or challenging, but some of them are really satisfactory ! Cheers, Ronin Sat, 14 Jan 2006 18:44:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9698 I don't think London is alone in sometimes putting financial considerations ahead of academic credentials when selecting its students. Oxbridge has a long history of giving places to rowers, the children of heads of state and of rich former students even if they don't make the grade intellectually. The problem with bad lecturers is sadly a symptom of modern academia, which puts far more emphasis on research and the production of books/articles than teaching quality. Many academics see teaching as an irritant. The best teachers I've had at london and oxford were those who didn't assume they knew all the answers and felt they had something to learn from listening to the views of their students. Dworkin's BCL seminars at oxford were legendary in that regard - more like general discussions of his current research than lectures. I think he still does the occasional class at UCL, but he's only part-time there. Profs Matthews and Hayton's seminars on the KCL LLM Trusts course are also taught in a very interactive and challenging style. Some of the large classes (eg arbitration at QMUL) also run supplementary tutorials, which tend to be more useful and more rewarding. One point on the BVC though, large numbers of overseas students do it so that they can be called to the English Bar not so that they can practice in England as barristers. To take studentbarista's example, some Pakistanis regard it as a matter of prestige to be called by Lincoln's Inn as Jinnah was a former member. Having finished the course many go straight back home. You might think it weird that people would pay 10 grand for something as useless as the BVC (which in reality is a joke qualification that doesn't prepare you in the slightest for the challenge of pupillage) but if it helps them get ahead back home then that's fair enough I suppose... Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:17:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9702 Mr. K - that is true, as the particular girl in question is intending to practice in Pakistan. It will be interesting to see how the Bar Council's new rules on the deferral of call until after pupillage will affect people like her. Presumably the BVC providers will find it even harder to fill places on the course! Sat, 14 Jan 2006 23:27:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9704 Hi all! I've a question. Is it possible to apply at UCL or KCL for a "general" LLM and only after their offer of acceptance decide which courses to take? I ask this because from their website I would say it is possible, but in the application form you have to indicate the 4 subjects you'd like to chose..... Thanks Sun, 15 Jan 2006 00:40:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9705 Don't worry, your choice in your application is not binding. It is just for information purpose. The subjects I have finally chosen once in the LLM are different from what I put in the application form. Sun, 15 Jan 2006 21:59:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9729 Hi thanks! Just for information, what which university and which subject did you chose? Are you satisfied? Thanks. manu Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:34:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9750 Hello, I finally decided to go to UCL. My subjects are the following : 1 Legal Aspects of International Finance with Prof Graham Penn 2 European Financial regulations (at KCL) with Prof Jan Dalhuisen (Socrates way teaching, can be confusing for some students, but excellent teacher) 3 Comparative Secured Transactions with Prof Michael Bridge (very tricky and technical, but really interesting) 4 Comparative Torts Law with Prof Basil Markesinis I am very happy with all those subjects. I tried to go on classes academically challenging (ie satisafactory content) taught by a known teacher, and if possible with few students as it is better to make contacts and work closely with students and teachers. Of course, you will be expected to prepare and do your reading efficiently when you are les numerous ! We are numerous in Legal Aspects but the other 3 classes have no more than 25 students and the atmosphere is excellent. I have heard that the following classes are also excellent if you target the same (ie satisfactory content, very known teacher, few students) 1 International insolvency Law at UCL with Prof Ian Fletcher (I plan to attend as a listener at the 2nd Term) 2 Commercial Banking Law (at KCL) with Prof Richard Hooley 3 International Trust Law (at KCL) with Prof Paul Matthews. I am quite frustrated to have timeclash with Prof Bridge Class so that I can not attend to this one, as this Trust Law class is a passionating experience for continental lawyers. I hope it helps, Ronin Tue, 17 Jan 2006 00:00:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9770 Thank you Ronin! Do you happen to know whether the IP courses are well organised and worth being followed? Or is it better to stay on "commercial" aspects of the law, as those you mentioned? .... sorry to bother.... ciao Tue, 17 Jan 2006 04:10:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9776 Ronin, Excellent choice of courses. Prof. Bridge taught me as an undergraduate, and I have only the highest praise for him as an academic, scholar and teacher. The courses by Graham Penn and Markesinis are also brilliant. Alas, I must warn you, the best courses are usually the hardest and involve the most work!! Happy studying! :-) Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:18:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9830 Thank you Kazaf ! You are right, the best courses are the ones who invlove the most work, especially as I am not familiar with common Law. But this is exactly why I selected especially MM Bridge and Markesinis classes as I really wanted the British experience and make something new ! What about you ? Which classes did you choose in Harvard ? Ronin Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:00:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9831 Thank you Ronin! Do you happen to know whether the IP courses are well organised and worth being followed? Or is it better to stay on "commercial" aspects of the law, as those you mentioned? .... sorry to bother.... ciao Well, As I am specialised in financial and commercial law, I stayed in the commercial aspects of the Law. However, this does not mean that all other classes are poor, it is I just do not know them. So as regards IP, I don't know, but I can try to collect information for you. I seem to remember that someone in this forum said that QMU is at top in IP, to be checked... So I collect information and I keep you in touch. And don't apologise for bothering, it is a pleasure for me to help, that is why I registered on this forum ! Cheers, Ronin Wed, 18 Jan 2006 23:40:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9847 very kind from you!!!!! Yes, Turkued told me that QM is well recognised for IP. I was wondering, as I haven't applyed to QM so far, if UCL is also to be considered for IP. I send my application a copuple of of days ago, how long does it take to get an answer? ciao Wed, 18 Jan 2006 23:45:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9848 Ah, another question.... I took the toefl last year in the US. I only have an "official" certificate, I mean, the one they send to my adress... I'm sending out "copies", is that enough or do they require a certified copy? If yes, how do I get it? merci beaucoup!!!! Fri, 20 Jan 2006 19:49:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#9927 As reagards the timing of your application, you will receive in one month approximatively an acknowledgement of receipt of your application. This paper will say wether or not your file has been received complete, and states an accurate date when UCL will make a decision about your application. So keep this paper preciously as it contains also your number of application (useful when you phone to them). I don't know if you need a certified copy. For the avoidance of the doubt, try to obtain one. "Mairies" in France provide such service quit easily in Paris, but I don't know if the same is true in Province. Anyway, do not send the original ! To all others : It seems that KCL wants to withdraw from the Intercollegiate program, but it is still a (strong) rumor. I don't know an official position saying that. I have asked to UCL staff, they said me something like "no comment, we are not in touch". Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:40:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#23567 I agree w/ Turkued. Though I am still a prospective student, looking through their different websites has made me realize how good an intercollegiate LLM would be. I have subjects of particular interest in various colleges. On an aside, is there anyone here who applied, or is applying ti UCL? I am in the process of applying on-line and I have a few questions about some of its parts. While I'm at it, is UCL (as opposed to Kings, SOAS, and LSE) good with human rights, legal theory and public law? Sat, 20 Jan 2007 18:15:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#23614 UCL is very good at legal theory and public law. http://www.ucl.ac.uk/laws/experts/index.shtml Regarding human rights, I do not know. However, there is a specialisation in human rights law. http://www.ucl.ac.uk/laws/prospective/llm/index.shtml?llm_specdegree Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:00:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#23655 Thanks Johnson. I will put that into consideration. Has there been any news with regard to ending of Intercollegiate LLM? The SOAS website still requires its students to take at LEAST 2 subjects in SOAS, which means they can take subjects in the other colleges. Tue, 23 Jan 2007 11:29:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#23659 Has there been any news with regard to ending of Intercollegiate LLM? "October 2006 was the final date for registration for the LLM under the Regulations for the LLM Degree for Internal Students. The final date for examination under these Regulations will be in session 2008-9. Part-time students should have received from their College of registration information about completing their course of study. From October 2007 each College will be offering its own LLM programmes. " http://www.london.ac.uk/95.html ! Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:56:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#23670 I was about to post the same link! What are the implications of this? UCL will be issuing a UCL diploma instead of a University of London Diploma. Would there not be repercussions? Considering that technically no one would have heard of a UCL diploma as of 2007 since UCL graduates of the past get a UL diploma. Won't employers wonder what UCL is? Wont the dif. colleges start from scratch in building their reputations again, at least in terms of the weight of the diploma? Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:45:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#23688 *** "To those of you thinking about doing the London LLM please be advised next year is the last year to do it." *** Contrary to the first post in this thread (above), I suppose that those of us planning to go to London next year will not be able to follow the Intercollegiate LLM? Also, would anyone who is currently studying at King's, Queen Mary, UCL or LSE care to comment on the library facilities? I am most interested in King's and LSE . . . . Thank you. P. Martini Wed, 04 Apr 2007 09:13:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#29140 Having completed the LLM last year and having enjoyed all of the library facilities... U.C.L.: Fairly small legal collection; usually have what they claim to have; helpful staff. K.C.L.: Good place to study; adequate collection, although items often missing; very UNhelpful staff. Q.M.U.L.: Collection is very undergraduate course oriented; dreadful building, helpful staff. L.S.E.: Best of the uni's; longer opening hours, best designed building, crowded. You'll be spending a lot of your time at I.A.L.S. which has the largest UoL legal collection. Hidden gem: the Senate House legal collection. Rarely used by LLM students, books often in pristine shape, great place to study. Wed, 04 Apr 2007 12:24:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#29148 *** "To those of you thinking about doing the London LLM please be advised next year is the last year to do it." *** Contrary to the first post in this thread (above), I suppose that those of us planning to go to London next year will not be able to follow the Intercollegiate LLM? Also, would anyone who is currently studying at King's, Queen Mary, UCL or LSE care to comment on the library facilities? I am most interested in King's and LSE . . . . Thank you. P. Martini I'm a King's undergrad and couldn't be happier with the library facilities. Clean, quiet, well built, attractive building, plenty of computer facilities (printing is a rip off, but I guess that's the same everywhere) and postgrads can get there own individual study cubicle if they're that way inclined (I personally think that's a bit of a lonely way to play out your existence). The collection has it's strengths and weaknesses, though too many books are on four week loans. Certain books won't be touched all year, and then suddenly a tutor will hand out suggested bibliography for an essay, and every book is out till way past the essay deadline. It may only be a small class, but one person is often all it takes. However, with the ability to use all the libraries in UoL, that's not really a problem. LSE library is excellent, especially for when you need something more theory based given their emphasis on political studies. IALS is also very useful, as is Senate House (if not suffering from crippling underfunding...I don't think it's long for this world). I've never used UCL or QM libraries. As a last resort, you can always go to the British Library on Euston Road, which has pretty much everything. There aren't many places in the UK, or even the world, where you have the potential to get your hands on so many books. What the hell would you do if you needed a book not in the library at somewhere like Keele or Warwick?! Wed, 04 Apr 2007 17:31:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#29181 What the hell would you do if you needed a book not in the library at somewhere like Keele or Warwick?! Use the interlibrary loan system Wed, 04 Apr 2007 18:24:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#29190 What the hell would you do if you needed a book not in the library at somewhere like Keele or Warwick?! Many of the "new" areas of law covered in an LL.M (such as IP, IT, Medical Ethics on Edinburgh's LL.M Innovation, Technology and the Law) rely more on journals than books. Students studying via distance learning are not disadvantaged by their lack of proximity to a law library. Everything they require is available online. And for on-campus students the same can be said. No matter how great a library book collection is, it's not an essential consideration for every LL.M subject, so don't forget to ask about an institution's access to online collections. Fri, 06 Apr 2007 19:07:00 +0200 http://www.llm-guide.com/board/9599/last#29402 Also ask whether interlibrary loan facilities are available to LLM students. LLM students are not considered research students. As such, at QMUL last year we were not given interlibrary loan privleges. It was very frustrating trying to do an essay that comprised 25% of my course of study without access to IL loans while undergrads had no such problem. Don't assume anything.