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nirvana


Joined: 23 May 2005
Posts: 44
current student
Sat Jan 21, 2006 04:50 AM
Hi,

Paul and Blogggs! thanks a ton for the input. As stated earlier, very insightful. Well, the decision would largely depend on my final offers (will keep fingers crossed till then).

Thanks again for your inputs, really appreciate the same.
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kius74

Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 9
current student
Wed Feb 01, 2006 06:22 PM
does anybody have any info about that Fenwick program?
Thank you
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Paul

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 90
current student
Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:28 PM
I don't know if this "Fenwick Program" is sponsored by Stanford but Fenwick hired 2/3 Stanford LLMs for summer programs for the past 3 years. I guess Stanford has a very strong relationship with CA firms (Fenwick, Wilson Sonsini, Gibson, Latham, Cooley) and b/c almost all other LLMs are in the east coast you can take advantage of that.
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newbie

Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 15
current student
Sat Feb 04, 2006 03:16 PM
Hi All,

This has been an interesting read...I also have a few questions which you guys may be able to help me with. Basically, in relation to the criteria used by top law schools would you have any insight into the weight given to grades, recommendations, experiences etc? Will having a good recommendation from the head of your undergrad law school compensate for not graduating with 1st class honours but still being within the top 10% of your year?

Also, do you think that being accepted into a school like Berkeley is a good indication that schools like Columbia, NYU and Harvard might also be interested in you?

Thanks
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blogggs

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 10
current student
Tue Feb 07, 2006 04:32 AM
Hi!

I think with those grades you have a good chance at NYU and Columbia. Harvard may be harder.

Rule of thumb is that the better the experience, recs etc the "less" important grades become and of course the reverse. It also depends on how many people from your country apply that year etc etc etc. Sorry I can t be more specific.

Congrats on Berkeley!! and good luck
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Paul

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 90
current student
Tue Feb 07, 2006 03:57 PM
I agree. There are so many factors to take into account that we would be guessing if we say that you are going to be accepted to x school b/c you were accepted to y school. It is a good indication though. You probably have a strong application.

As blogggs said, it also depends on how many good applicants with similar background are applying to the same schools. If you are a top 10% and the top student from you school is also applying this year (considering similar working experience), your chances go down.

Anyway, Boalt is a great school! Huge reputation in the US. Congrats.
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asterion

Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 107
current student
Tue Feb 07, 2006 04:20 PM
Newbie,

Is Berkeley sending admission letters already?
Thanks!
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kius74

Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 9
current student
Thu Feb 09, 2006 02:22 AM
I don't know if this "Fenwick Program" is sponsored by Stanford but Fenwick hired 2/3 Stanford LLMs for summer programs for the past 3 years. I guess Stanford has a very strong relationship with CA firms (Fenwick, Wilson Sonsini, Gibson, Latham, Cooley) and b/c almost all other LLMs are in the east coast you can take advantage of that.


Thanks Paul. maybe it's just a rumor but I've heard that they hired only people with top connections for purposes of business development. I've been told of some people with stellar credentials who weren't even interviewed. Anyway, not a surprise, it seems tough anywhere. Good night.
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wlema

Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 2
current student
Tue Feb 21, 2006 09:53 PM
Hi,

All these information are very interesting..

I am admitted at Georgetown in tax, Boston University (with a scholarship), Berkeley and Duke.
I think i have good chance to be admitted at Cornell and Penn.

Even some of you consider that if one want to specialize in taxation it is better to go at NYU (LLM in tax) than other universities, does anyone know if such choice also apply in my case and that i 'd better go at georgetown in taxation (rank 3 in tax) than the other universities i am admitted in?

Thanks by advance for the answer.

see you
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Dr_Jekyll


Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 83
current student
Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:47 AM
My humble opinion in this discussion:

1° If you want to work in New York after your LLM, you are best off going to Columbia. Just look up the number of lawyers in New York firms that are graduates from Columbia and you will see why this is a generally accepted statement (I am referring to NYU Faculty who made this same statement).

2° From my experience, Columbia's LLM program is not too big to know only a few of your colleagues. Actually, I can say without lying that I know every single LLM in my class (maybe not by first and last name, but still). From my visit in Harvard a couple of weeks ago, I must say that I was disappointed to see that they only hang out in small groups and don't know each other.

3° When it comes to job offers, I can say that this year is a very good year. Most of the LLMs at Columbia who are actively seeking a job (probably about 50% of the class) had contacts and call-back interviews with several firms. Many of them already have offers (I would say about 10% already hold offers).

4° Now, as to the "elite" students when it comes to job search: this is a myth. Whoever wrote that only the elite at this or that Law School can receive a job (at least for the top 4 Law Schools), he is wrong. There is no real elite, and if there is, you need not be part of it to land an offer. Brazilians for example have an easy time finding a job in NY, because the Brazilian Capital Markets are booming, and US firms desperately need Brazilians. Others manage to arrange jobs with their previous employer, this time in the US. Others get support from their previous employer in finding a job. My conclusion: whoever manages the job search well can land a job (as long as he is from a top Law School).

5° When you talk about rankings of LLM programs, you kind of mix up many things. First, I would take Yale out of the ranking, and simply say that if you want to go into academia (as an LLM!), then Yale is your top destination. If you want to land a job (as a lawyer) in the US, Yale should not be ranked high, because law firms seek business-oriented people, not academics. My friends at Harvard say that Harvard too is quite academical, and not really business orientated.

6° The choice of the place is also extremely important. For example, I finally chose between Columbia and Chicago (NYU was trumped by Columbia in any case, and Northwestern by Chicago). One of the main reasons I chose Columbia is because it is in NY. And let me tell you this: there is no other city than NY in the US! If you want to live in a big city, then NY is the top choice. Otherwise you can hang out in Ithaca (Cornell), Duke etc..

7° Choosing between Harvard and Columbia can be a tough choice, and some of the LLMs here at Columbia turned down Harvard. They do not regret it at all. They have job offers, they live in a great city, they had excellent classes in their LLM, and they met great classmates. What gives the edge to Columbia (in my opinion - and I accept alternative viewpoints) is New York, employment opportunities, Faculty quality, student body quality, business networking, very high interaction among the LLMs, and a culturally diverse LLM group. One final point: in Columbia's LLM class, there is not 95% of super-egos trying to "out-ego" the others.

Am I partial? Yes, of course. But at least I have visited Harvard, NYU, Chicago, and Stanford. I have friends at the different places (except at Chicago). And the echoes that I receive are not very positive and appealing..

Now let the counter-arguments rain :-D

DocJ
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Paul

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 90
current student
Wed Feb 22, 2006 05:23 AM
Hi Doc J! I actually agree with many of your statements (and disagree on a few). So, lets the rain pour down:

1) From a job standpoint, I think the great advantage of NYU and Columbia is the location. It is very easy to go to interviews, callbacks, have dinner with NY lawyers and foreign associates who can give you tips, etc. That’s great but that is it. Your argument that there are a number of graduates from Columbia that work in NY is true but it in my opinion this is not a good argument. Approx. 99% of the JDs that graduate form Yale, Harvard, Stanford and Columbia get multiple job offers in top-tier firms. I really don’t think that Columbia JDs (or “corporate” LLMs) get better offers than other top schools’ students, unless you can prove the contrary.

2) I agree that you will find more competition in Harvard and, at least from what I heard, people are less friendly there. How many LLMs study with you? 200, 250. It is great that you know everybody but my friends that are studying in Columbia this year hang out with a group of no more than 10 people. These are the people who will become their friends forever. I am still undecided if it is better to go to a small LLM program (Stanford, Chicago, Penn) or a huge LLM program (Harvard, Columbia, NYU). I guess you can make a case for either one. We can even create a topic on this subject…

3) Agree. This year has been great. Almost all my friends got jobs or callbacks.

4) Actually, It depends. For those who are new in the business, here is the deal: US firms are either interested in (i) having a foreign associate for 9 m-12m to develop a good relationship with certain law firm, client, father, etc. or (ii) having someone in NY for 1 year and sending this person to the US firm office in that person’s country or (iii) having a permanent associate with a specific background (this is really the exception of the exception). So, don’t fool yourself, if you are Brazilian you may have more chances this year but you are still in category (i) above, meaning that it is all about contacts you can bring. According to a Br friend, there are approx. 220 Br LLMs this year in the US and roughly 50 positions. So, it is not a piece of cake. If you are Chinese, you may get luckier with option (iii) since nowadays US firms need associates with this background. I know some Chinese friends who got permanent positions last year. Finally, if you are European, you may end up in option (ii) above, since many US firms have offices in Europe. I do agree that “elite” students are not better than other students, specially if they do not have the right connections, etc. But for me, life does not end in NY but starts when I come back, so I guess a top 3 school (Yale, Harvard or Stanford) is something that may differentiate me.

5) I don’t know….I’m not applying to Yale b/c they don’t want people like me but I do think it is a great school, with lots of interesting corporate courses. You didn’t mention Stanford. Do you think it is more business-oriented?

6) I agree that NY is the best place in the US!!! But if you want so hard to work in NY than don’t you think it may be interesting to live one year in another city, a campus-type of school maybe. Berkeley, Stanford (in sunny California), Chicago or Boston, are all beautiful cities and mulch less expensive and less distracting than NY.

7) As you said, I am afraid you are a little bit biased. I really appreciate your insights though. I have been admitted to Columbia. I am waiting Stanford (my first option) and Harvard. B/w Harvard and Columbia I may end up choosing Harvard but I have not decided yet.
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Dr_Jekyll


Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 83
current student
Wed Feb 22, 2006 08:15 PM
Hi again:

1) Indeed, being in NY makes it easier to go to interviews and all that stuff. When I say that Columbia seems to create better job opportunities in New York, I base this on comments that were made to me by NY Associates and Partners. One thing that I forgot to mention was that the law firms mostly appreciate the innovative approach to law school teaching that Columbia has been promoting for the past couple of years. Courses have become much less theoretical, and many courses are now very practical, hands-on orientated. I was fortunate enough to experience this, and I must admit that one of these courses teaches me 10 times more than 5 other law school courses. Maybe that's also one of the reasons for the growing success of Columbia graduates..

2) Columbia LLM has about 200 LLMs. Harvard has about 150 and NYU has 440. I agree that the smaller the program, the better are the stronger are the ties between LLMs. It is also true that a lot of LLMs hang out mostly with the same other LLMs. But that is also a necessity. That does not change from LLM program to LLM program, whatever the size. What I am very happy about is that even though everyone has his group of "best friends" (i.e. people that he will remain in close contact with after the LLM), there is a lot of contact among the whole class. No-one is disinterested in someone who doesn't belong to his little group of best acquaintances, it is more of the contrary..
Small or big program? I don't know. As I said, my final choice was between Chicago (50) and Columbia (200). Not an easy choice, but I don't regret it. I guess in the end it all depends on WHO the others are.

4) I mentioned Brazilians, but I forgot to mention Indians. Actually I even think that Indians have better opportunities to find a job than Brazilians. Most Indian LLMs in Columbia's program have offers for permanent positions. As to the Brazilians, some have permanent offers, some have 1-year offers.
You said that there are approx. 220 Br LLMs this year in the US and roughly 50 positions. Where do those Brazilians study? No offense, but unless you are in one of the top 5 law schools, I think that your chances decrease dramatically anyways..
Finally, it is true that if you do not want to work in NY, or if you want to go abroad (home or elsewhere), the situation is completely different. You mention top 3 schools (Yale, Harvard or Stanford -- don't know if I agree with this top 3, but anyways..), but I think this strongly depends on the country or the firm where you want to work. In some countries, they will appreciate Harvard more, in others they will like Stanford, in others they will like Columbia, and in some they might even like Georgetown more! In other countries it doesn't matter at all which Law School you went to, as long as you have a US LLM.

5) "I’m not applying to Yale b/c they don’t want people like me": I think this speaks for itself. Yale certainly has many good Professors, and many interesting corporate courses. But Yale is and remains very theoretical and focused on future academics. I did not mean to say that Yale is not a good Law School. It just depends on what your goals are. Let me give you an example: if you want to end up working in the oil industry somewhere in Turkey or I don't know where, would you prefer doing your LLM at Yale or at a Law School in Houston (or anywhere else in Texas)? It all depends on your goals..
I didn’t mention Stanford because I don't know its LLM programs too well. I think they have two sections, one of them being more theoretical, the other more business-oriented. However, here too it is important to make the distinction. If you want to study IP, I would say: go to Stanford, Duke etc. Harvard, Yale, Columbia are no match. As above, it all depends on what you want to do.

6) "if you want so hard to work in NY than don’t you think it may be interesting to live one year in another city" No! Once you start working in NY, you won't have time to see the city ;-) It sounds bad, but it actually is the very sad truth. Most Associates in NY work from 9-10am to late in the night, and also on weekends. So...
It is true that most other cities are much less expensive (good point), the weather is better in California (also a good point), some cities are beautiful (right), and those cities are less distracting (do you really think that this is positive?).
I visited Berkeley, and honestly, I think that the campus is fairly nice, but the rest (including the Law School)...? Stanford is nice.
The problem I have with Chicago is that the winter lasts about 6 months, and it is so bad that you basically have to stay inside during all this time. Why would I go spend time in a place where 2/3 of the time I can't go outside because it's too cold/windy?
Boston is a nice city, but it is fairly small. Furthermore, most Harvard LLMs that I spoke to make it to Boston about once a month, and for the rest they stay in Cambridge. And honestly, I was in Cambridge for 48h and man, that place is BORING!

7) I am a bit biased. I do generalize sometimes. But in all honesty I think that Columbia has a very good LLM program. I think that being in NY is also a great experience. But in the end, I think that everyone who needs to make a choice between several Law Schools should choose not based on the reputation of the School, but based on where his 40k investment will generate the best return (i.e. which School offers the best courses/Faculty in your area of practice; do you want theoretical or practical courses; do you want to stay in the US permanently or temporarily; do you want to return back home; etc.).

Let's keep the ball rolling..
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bhutani_s

Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Posts: 18
current student
Wed Feb 22, 2006 08:27 PM
Pretty insightful... but are u trying to say that llm would not ensure a better job? because it is a very expensive course and if the returns are not great then practice just after llb would make more sense... so in more clear terme..would llm be a better bet?
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Dr_Jekyll


Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 83
current student
Wed Feb 22, 2006 08:34 PM
Does an LLM ensure a better job?
Good question. I guess it all depends on where you would like to work. I know that in some countries, having an LLM is the only way you can get into the top law firms. In other countries however, an LLM is an extra, but without an LLM you get the same position.
Now, an LLM is a large investment. Tuition now gets close to 40k, and living expenses must be added to this too. Does it make sense to make such a big investment? I suppose you need to find out what the expectations are in your home country. I know that many LLM students try to get a one-year position in the US after completion of their LLM so they can repay their loan or just make up for th money they spent towards the LLM (e.g. salary in NY and CA can be as high as 145k for a first year Associate). IT is however not easy to get a job in the US..
Is an LLM a better bet? You will have to find out yourself. If you can get any job you want in your home country, an LLM is not necessary. If it opens you new option or a better career track, then you should think about doing it, even though it requires a large investment.
Hope this helps,
DocJ
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yueping

Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 109
current student
Wed Feb 22, 2006 08:58 PM
Indeed, it makes much more sense to work after a LLB then to get an LLM.
In countries where the law system is similar to the anglo-american system, doing an LLM does not bring much : as the law system is very similar (common law), it doesn't bring you that much and it doesn't pay back that good either.
The reason why LLM are valued is because it allows students to immerse themselves in a different culture, for example if they come from countries like France or Germany and where the law system is completely different from USA,
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Paul

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 90
current student
Wed Feb 22, 2006 09:18 PM
Dr.J., let me ask you this questions: would you turn down Harvard or Stanford for Columbia? I am sorry but Harvard is Harvard (the brand name is just too strong) and Stanford is tempting b/c it is like a country club with top notch education.

It is just my opinion but I do think that 200 LLMs (15 LLMs just from my home country) is too much. Columbia used to have a 80 student program but they became greedy. I am sorry but I think the "value" of an LLM with so many people is not the same of going to a 20/30 student LLM program.
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yueping

Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 109
current student
Wed Feb 22, 2006 09:36 PM
Size doesn't affect the "value" of the LLM. Just take NYU's LLM program : they accept a few hundred students (well above 200 students) yet the quality of their LLM is undisputed. Their LLM program is still highly praised and highly looked after.
Harvard also takes well above 100 students, so if you're looking for a program with a small student number, neither Harvard, Columbia, NYU, etc. will do.
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kius74

Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 9
current student
Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:31 PM
I couldn't agree more with Paul. I don't wanna discuss Dr. J's statement, but I know of many people who turned down Columbia for Yale/Harvard/Stanford, yet not the opposite. In terms of selection rate, Yale and Stanford appear to be the toughest ones at the moment. I don't think one could reasonably say that this has no impact on the quality of the program, as in the end a good part of the added value of an LLM program has to do with class interaction. I don't wanna say that a Columbia LLM student is better or worse than a Yale or a Stanford candidate, but on average I think it's fair to draw some implications. Having said that, I don't think I am an outstanding candidate, and would be extremely happy and proud if I got admitted to Columbia.

Dr.J., let me ask you this questions: would you turn down Harvard or Stanford for Columbia? I am sorry but Harvard is Harvard (the brand name is just too strong) and Stanford is tempting b/c it is like a country club with top notch education.

It is just my opinion but I do think that 200 LLMs (15 LLMs just from my home country) is too much. Columbia used to have a 80 student program but they became greedy. I am sorry but I think the "value" of an LLM with so many people is not the same of going to a 20/30 student LLM program.
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Paul

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 90
current student
Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:36 PM
I honestly think that the reputation of NYU LLM program takes a hit because they accept 400+ students. All my friends that got offers from NYU and another top 5 school, ended up declining the NYU offer. So, I guess it is fair to say that, broadly speakingm, NYU does not get the best students around (exception to tax / international law concentrations). I know some people will come hard on me but I am just talking about credentials, grades, etc..

NYU has historicaly accepted 15 people from my country every year. After 10 years, you have 150 people with very similar resumes. Again, it is just my point of view but one of the my goals is to distinguish myself when I go back to my country.
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ms

Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 40
current student
Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:43 PM
The discussions on Columbia v Harvard etc is very interesting, esp for me, since i have been accepted by Columbia and am awaiting results from Harvard, Yale and NYU. However, this discussion seems to be very corporate oriented. What is your opinion on courses in Human Rights, Criminal Law and International Criminal Law? Isnt columbia known for its HR programme?
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Paul

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 90
current student
Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:51 PM
You are right. We are talking about corporate law. If you want to be an expert on international criminal law, human rights, etc, I suggest you focus more on the professors and less on the schools.
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kius74

Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 9
current student
Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:01 PM
I am from Eastern Europe; just out of curiosity where are you from Paul?

I honestly think that the reputation of NYU LLM program takes a hit because they accept 400+ students. All my friends that got offers from NYU and another top 5 school, ended up declining the NYU offer. So, I guess it is fair to say that, broadly speakingm, NYU does not get the best students around (exception to tax / international law concentrations). I know some people will come hard on me but I am just talking about credentials, grades, etc..

NYU has historicaly accepted 15 people from my country every year. After 10 years, you have 150 people with very similar resumes. Again, it is just my point of view but one of the my goals is to distinguish myself when I go back to my country.
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Paul

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 90
current student
Thu Feb 23, 2006 02:55 AM
Germany.
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Dr_Jekyll


Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 83
current student
Thu Feb 23, 2006 04:32 PM
Paul,

That is actually funny. You said that Columbia had accepted 15 of your countrymen into the LLM. This sounds a bit surprising now that you say that you are from Germany. As far as I know, there are only 5 Germans in the program..

If you want to read about how selective Columbia is when it comes to Germans, you might be interested in reading the following Spiegel article:
www.spiegel.de/unispiegel/jobundberuf/0,1518,39876…

Now, let me just react to the discussion about the size of the program. It is true that 200 LLMs is a pretty large number. However, whether there are 100, 150, or 200 does not really matter. Why? Because there is no LLMs-only class (except the summer introduction course and a special Contracts class). LLMs take classes with the JDs. I think this is great, and I would prefer that a thousand times over having only LLM-only classes.

Now, I don't mean to say that numbers do not matter at all. I think that as long as the size is not too large to be able to know all your fellow LLMs, then it's ok. Columbia actually promotes a lot interaction among LLMs: first, most of them get to know each other through the 3-week introduction course in the summer; second, there are regularly Friday afternoon get-togethers organized by the Graduate Studies Office where all the LLMs are invited. Thus, it is very much possible to know all of your fellow LLMs. Otherwise I definitely wouldn't feel that positive about the size of the program.

Btw, one of the German students mentioned in the Spiegel article turned down Harvard. And he is not the only one at Columbia who did..

DocJ
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Paul

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 90
current student
Thu Feb 23, 2006 05:01 PM
I will take that. BTW, I have been accepted to Columbia. You know, there is no right or wrong here. As I always say, it is more about gut feeling than anything else. In the end, any top 15 school is a great choice. Columbia is one of the best law schools in the world, what else can I say. I would love to go there!

I do think however (in my particular case) that Harvard and Stanford are better options. Harvard has more reputation worldwide (do you agree?) and Stanford is probably the most selective LLM program in the US (do you agree?) They accept 1 german - if they accept one this year - and receive 40/50 applications). And that ratio applies to almost all countries.

So if your goal is pure "reputation", you should go to Harvard. If you want to be part of a "very selective club", you go to Stanford. Columbia is a good mix though.
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