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Dr_Jekyll


Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 83
current student
Thu Feb 23, 2006 07:08 PM
First, congratulations on your acceptance to Columbia. As you know by now, the ratio of Germans that are accepted into Columbia's LLM program is really low, so you must have impressive credentials.

I agree that there is no right or wrong. Actually I think that you put the discussion in really good terms: reputation (in favor of Harvard), selectiveness (in favor of Stanford, or Chicago, or Michigan..). What does Columbia stand for?

For sure, there will be more of your countrymen that hold an LLM from Columbia than from Stanford. I agree that this can be very important. I do however think that this alone should not be a decisive factor when you are trying to decide which Law School to go to.

Probably Harvard's LLM still holds a very good reputation in your country. But there is something intrinsically wrong with this, and it can be put in very simple words: when you ask someone why Harvard, they say, well because of its reputation. I do not mean to discredit Harvard here, but then again I don't think that reputation alone will stand for very long. Actually, in the legal profession in Europe there is a growing number of lawyers who are aware of the reputation v. quality of education conflict when it comes to the top Universities. From my own experience, I can only say this:
- one of my former Professors has studied at both Columbia, and Harvard (PhD). He strongly recommended Columbia for its higher quality of legal education, and said that Harvard's only asset is its reputation.
- I met with several European partners from American and English law firms, and they expressed very clearly their feelings about LLMs where you get a very strong legal education as opposed to LLMs where you only carry away a name to put on your resume (in one of the meetings, Harvard was cited as a reputation-only school).

Now should this all be important? I don't know. In the end, I think that those people out there who choose to go to Harvard ONLY because of its reputation are stupid (sorry for putting it this bluntly). If however they choose Harvard because they can get, in terms of legal education (the purpose of the LLM in my humble opinion), something that they cannot get anywhere else, then they are smart.

As I said before, it all depends on your goals. But the day prospective applicants decide to choose their LLM program not based on reputation, but based on the return in terms of legal education that they get for the money that they are investing, some Universities will suffer for sure!

Hakuna Matata,

DocJ
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Paul

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 90
current student
Thu Feb 23, 2006 08:17 PM
Thanks. I am really happy with Columbia's offer. I do agree that Harvard probably does not deserve the #2 spot and that Harvard's reputation is what makes Harvard special. Finally, I think the LLM admission process in Stanford and Columbia is more focused on credentials (and less focused on family names), whichis how I think it should be. Harvard used to be #1, then it moved to #2 and not long ago, if I am not wrong, Harvard was ranked #3 . But still, how many US Supreme Court Justices went to Harvard? And Columbia?

I think that b/w Harvard and Columbia I will go to Harvard but I am happy with Columbia. What about Stanford? I would actually be more inclined towards Stanford than Harvard and Columbia.
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kius74

Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 9
current student
Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:49 PM
Congratulations Paul, I still haven't heard anything so far. As to the dilemma about who's best, I don't know. I know people (some close friends some just acquaintances) from continental Europe who went to each of Harvard, Columbia and Stanford. All brillliant people. However I have to say that those who have been accepted to Harvard and Stanford all have "something more" as compared those admitted to Columbia or other top law schools, be it absolutely incredible grades (as compared to "only" very good grades) or very solid working experience (e.g. 6-7 years of top law firm experience as opposed to 2-4), other advanced degrees (for instance I know of some Germans with doctorate degrees at Stanford), or even the above combined together. Maybe it's correct to say that Harvard is very much about reputation, but I would not overstress this, I think they still are very selective. Another issue is whether you need connections besides credentials, on which I have no clear ideas.



Thanks. I am really happy with Columbia's offer. I do agree that Harvard probably does not deserve the #2 spot and that Harvard's reputation is what makes Harvard special. Finally, I think the LLM admission process in Stanford and Columbia is more focused on credentials (and less focused on family names), whichis how I think it should be. Harvard used to be #1, then it moved to #2 and not long ago, if I am not wrong, Harvard was ranked #3 . But still, how many US Supreme Court Justices went to Harvard? And Columbia?

I think that b/w Harvard and Columbia I will go to Harvard but I am happy with Columbia. What about Stanford? I would actually be more inclined towards Stanford than Harvard and Columbia.
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graph75

Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 2
current student
Fri Feb 24, 2006 03:00 AM
I agree with you Kius. Columbia is a top law school but I think it is simply not realistic to compare it to HLS/SLS. Going back to Dr. J's post about placement, I've been told that 100% of SLS's LLMs got jobs last year.

Congratulations Paul, I still haven't heard anything so far. As to the dilemma about who's best, I don't know. I know people (some close friends some just acquaintances) from continental Europe who went to each of Harvard, Columbia and Stanford. All brillliant people. However I have to say that those who have been accepted to Harvard and Stanford all have "something more" as compared those admitted to Columbia or other top law schools, be it absolutely incredible grades (as compared to "only" very good grades) or very solid working experience (e.g. 6-7 years of top law firm experience as opposed to 2-4), other advanced degrees (for instance I know of some Germans with doctorate degrees at Stanford), or even the above combined together. Maybe it's correct to say that Harvard is very much about reputation, but I would not overstress this, I think they still are very selective. Another issue is whether you need connections besides credentials, on which I have no clear ideas.



Thanks. I am really happy with Columbia's offer. I do agree that Harvard probably does not deserve the #2 spot and that Harvard's reputation is what makes Harvard special. Finally, I think the LLM admission process in Stanford and Columbia is more focused on credentials (and less focused on family names), whichis how I think it should be. Harvard used to be #1, then it moved to #2 and not long ago, if I am not wrong, Harvard was ranked #3 . But still, how many US Supreme Court Justices went to Harvard? And Columbia?

I think that b/w Harvard and Columbia I will go to Harvard but I am happy with Columbia. What about Stanford? I would actually be more inclined towards Stanford than Harvard and Columbia.
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Paul

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 90
current student
Fri Feb 24, 2006 03:28 AM
Kius 74: I guess you are right. I have some "issues" with Harvard b/c, as you said, connections are so important there. But you are right, I think that, people who are accepted to Harvard and Stanford have a "plus", maybe they are PHds, maybe they are top 1%/3% of their class, etc. I think it is a fair statement to make. Doc. J will come hard on us but...
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Dr_Jekyll


Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 83
current student
Fri Feb 24, 2006 02:02 PM
Here is a little something to work with (and it might create a bit of a controversy): one of these plus's that could trigger an acceptance to HLS might be prior work experience with Cleary. It might sound surprising, and it is certainly not the rule, but when you count the number of students who have this background in the HLS LLM, you could start wondering. Whether this has anything to do with the fact that Cleary is a major sponsor to HLS is something that I prefer to leave open...

Btw, HLS has about a 10% acceptance rate, the same as CLS. HLS accepts about 40-50 less students. I think that one difference that can be observed is that Harvard puts a lot more weight on grades and class rankings than other schools. That much I agree with. But I think that to make a well rounded student, you need a lot more than just first place coming out of Law School or top 1%.. Maybe Paul wants to translate part of the Spiegel article for us that refers to this?

When it comes to PhD, I cannot completely agree. There are a number of CLS LLMs who hold a PhD.. I think the reason why there are more of these at HLS is that those people are seeking a theoretical, academia-orientated education.

DocJ

P.S.: I don't think that I was hard, was I?
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Paul

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 90
current student
Sat Feb 25, 2006 05:06 AM
Hum...I may accept the fact that both schools have a 10% acceptance rate but there is one ratio (I am struggling to find it in the net) that is quite interesting. The ratio is: students that accept an offer/students who receive an offer. Of course 1 is the best ratio a school can get. Pursuant to that ratio Yale, Harvard and Stanford rank way better than Columbia. So, I guess that the very best candidates get offers from more than one of these "elite" schools and usually they place Harvard, Stanford or Yale ahead of Columbia. A good way to check that is if you could tell us how many people in your class was also accepted to Harvard or Stanford. I asked one friend who went to Stanford last year and he told me (of course we never know the truth...) that about 50% of the students also received offers from Harvard and almost all students in the corporate LLM got an offer from Columbia. Any thoughts?
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Yps

Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 64
current student
Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:43 PM
Very interesting discussion indeed.

From my personal (German) experiences, the "Harvard" factor counts less the more you come close to people who have won some insight in the US schools (and there are a lot more of them than just a few years ago). In my view, for example Chicago (they just offered admission :)) has a great reputation, which comes at least close to HLS. Especially if you are interested in corporate law and economic analysis of law, many "big names" are not in Harvard. I talked to a lot of lawyers in big international law firms and they all told me, that the most important thing they expect someone to have are language skills and basic knowledge of the US legal system. Therefore, HLS is nice, but you will not have a disadvantage by having pursued your LL.M. studies at CLS, NYU, Chicago, Penn, Cornell or any other school within the top twenty. Thus, I would judge due to personal aims which might bring some other interests into play. In my case, I need to do some research for my PhD thesis with respect to corporate law and economic analysis of law. Because of this, Chicago is definitely one of my top choices.
I think this estimation is not altered if you think in terms of an academic career. Many German professors have not been in Harvard and I don't think they went to Columbia, Chicago or Penn just because their grades and/or c.v. were not sufficient.
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kius74

Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 9
current student
Sat Feb 25, 2006 07:56 PM
I think neither Paul nor I were trying to say that if you go to any of the Top 10/20 law schools you will have a disadvantage. Of course these are all very good choices for professional purposes. All that I meant to argue was that HLS/YLS/SLS carry that particular "plus" that make them in general the most sought-after law schools. Having said that, if you have particular reasons to go to any of the other law schools (in your case for particular academic interests) that's exactly what you should do. But otherwise the general statement made above remains, I think, valid and fair. BTW, I have just been accepted to Columbia, and I would be very happy to go; but should I be accepted to HLS/SLS I would be very happy to turn it down as well.



Very interesting discussion indeed.

From my personal (German) experiences, the "Harvard" factor counts less the more you come close to people who have won some insight in the US schools (and there are a lot more of them than just a few years ago). In my view, for example Chicago (they just offered admission :)) has a great reputation, which comes at least close to HLS. Especially if you are interested in corporate law and economic analysis of law, many "big names" are not in Harvard. I talked to a lot of lawyers in big international law firms and they all told me, that the most important thing they expect someone to have are language skills and basic knowledge of the US legal system. Therefore, HLS is nice, but you will not have a disadvantage by having pursued your LL.M. studies at CLS, NYU, Chicago, Penn, Cornell or any other school within the top twenty. Thus, I would judge due to personal aims which might bring some other interests into play. In my case, I need to do some research for my PhD thesis with respect to corporate law and economic analysis of law. Because of this, Chicago is definitely one of my top choices.
I think this estimation is not altered if you think in terms of an academic career. Many German professors have not been in Harvard and I don't think they went to Columbia, Chicago or Penn just because their grades and/or c.v. were not sufficient.
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LLM-MEX

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 14
current student
Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:24 PM
Hum...I may accept the fact that both schools have a 10% acceptance rate but there is one ratio (I am struggling to find it in the net) that is quite interesting. The ratio is: students that accept an offer/students who receive an offer.

Paul, I believe the ratio you mentioned may be found in the Princeton law review Web site.

Best.
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Paul

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 90
current student
Sun Feb 26, 2006 06:22 AM
Interesting link below. It is a ranking based exclusively on the "prestige" of the law school. Look how Yale, Harvard and Stanford are way ahead the others. Also interesting is to see UC Berkeley in a much better place and NYU in #10. I would like to know your thoughts on that ranking?

www.prelawhandbook.com/law_school_rankings__presti…

Best,

paul
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blogggs

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 10
current student
Tue Mar 07, 2006 04:29 AM
Haven t contributed in a while so here are my thoughts.

I do believe that for corporate law the 2 best programs are Harvard and Columbia. In Harvard you have Bebchuk, Ferrel, Powell, Roe and a greater number of the leading edge corporate academics than anywhere else. I
In Columbia, take a look at the leading casebooks in US Law. These are the books you are going to spend HOURS AND HOURS READING AND WORKING ON:
securities: coffee, he is at Columbia
corporations: Coffee and Eisenberg ie the authors of 2 out of the 3 classic corporations books teach at Columbia. Milhaupt and Goshen who are amazing teachers are also at Columbia.
law and finance of corporate acquisitions (IE M&A)(06 Ed): Gordon and Gilson (2 of 3),
Antitrust: Goldschmid dito.
Same in Administrative Law.
In Bankruptcy you actually get the lawyers who represented Enron to teach you bankruptcy. What more can you say? If you want to study US corporate or securities law I find it hard to believe that any school is going to beat Columbia.
Big program/small program: In my view its a minor consideration. You are going to make many friends wherever you go.

Good luck!
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Paul

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 90
current student
Tue Mar 07, 2006 04:47 PM
Ok Bloogs, this is my reply to you.

I have two friends: one went to Stanford last year and another one went to Columbia a couple of years ago. Both took classes with Gilson. My friend at Stanford was in a class of 20 students (2 LLMs), became Gilson's friend and apparently not only him but all other LLMs became very close to faculty (who even helped them to get jobs in law firms). My friend who went to Columbia had classes in auditoriums with 80+ students (more than 35 LLMs – three of them from his nationality) and had very few contact with Coffee and Gilson throughout the year. That is why I think size does matter.

We are only staying for 1 year so there is a limited amount of credits that we can take. If you are a corporate lawyer, you will probably take kmarkets, corporations, M&A and maybe 1 or 2 other corporate/finance courses (I think it is a good idea to take an elective at the business department). I really don't care if the university offers 5 corporations classes with different professors. Actually I would be afraid of not getting the professor I want. Do all the LLMs got into Coffee's class?

I am afraid I am becoming a "persona non grata" at Columbia...Don't take me wrong, I love the school, just disagree that size is not important. I wish Columbia had a smaller program.
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faithinme

Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 26
current student
Tue Mar 07, 2006 08:10 PM
hi

i hope i m not interupting your conversation but did anyone receive the last email that they said they would send to confirm the date of the decision?

you all compare harvard to chicago, columbia,etc but why doesn't anyone compare it with berkeley. it is the best public univ. i was just wondering what is the cause to berkeley's rankings to go from as low as around the 20th to as high as the top.
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Paul

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 90
current student
Tue Mar 07, 2006 08:35 PM
Berkeley is a great school. But you cannot compare it with Harvard, Stanford and Columbia. That's all.
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faithinme

Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 26
current student
Wed Mar 08, 2006 05:04 AM
i have no argue towards HLS and SLS being better but i personaly don't think columbia is that much better than berkeley. the US news might have berkeley down really low but the shanghai and the english times has it ranked rather highly.

anyway did you guys receive the email that HLS said they would send once they know when the decision would be made? is the big day 17 or 20 or 24?? if u know let me know too!! thanks
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anushka

Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 167
current student
Wed Mar 08, 2006 04:20 PM
The big day? No one knows...no one knows...
in the last email I got from them, they said it should be sometime in the week of 20-24 of March...so I guess we can forget about 17.
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Paul

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 90
current student
Wed Mar 08, 2006 04:42 PM
I know Stanford is doing phone interviews. My guess is that both schools (HLS and SLS) will send their decisions in the week of the 20.

Berkeley is great! Reputation wise Berkeley ranks very high in the US News ranking (same as Columbia I think).
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asterion

Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 107
current student
Wed Mar 08, 2006 06:57 PM
Paul, do you know is SLS has started doing phone-interviews? I heard that they were not holding interviews this year and that they were just going to announce decisions. Has anyone been interviewed by SLS? Thanks!
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ColumbiaJoe
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 67
current student
Wed Mar 08, 2006 08:41 PM
Being from the West Coast, I like Stanford and Berkeley. (California is a lot of fun.) However, for international law, your best options are Columbia, NYU, Georgetown and Harvard. The first three have many connections to international organizations in NY and DC. The most obvious reason is that international law - public and private - occurs in these cities (not Palo Alto). Harvard does have a name and thus for JD students admitted to both Harvard and Columbia, its a 2/3 - 1/3 split. Those interested in international law go to Columbia. Given the high quality of all of these schools, you might want to consider other factors such as where to live (do you really want to live in New Haven?).
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Paul

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 90
current student
Wed Mar 08, 2006 08:58 PM
I cannot agree more. But I think it is fair to say that the vast majority of Columbia students who are corporate lawyers take courses from the following list:

1. Corporations
2. Securities
3. M&A
4. Deals
5. Corporate Governance Colloquium
6. Contracts
7. Corporate Finance

These courses are also available at Stanford and at other "less international" schools. You may have electives at Columbia on "doing business in China" but this courses are also available at Wharton, Stanford GSB, etc. So my point is, for a corporate lawyer (who wants to understand US law, sit for the bar and practice a couple of years in the US), does it make sense to go to a more international school like Georgetown, NYU and Columbia, if he is accepted to Yale or Stanford?





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ColumbiaJoe
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 67
current student
Thu Mar 09, 2006 04:18 PM
If you want to do corporate work, my vote would be no to Georgetown and no to Yale. I think Columbia, Stanford, NYU and Harvard are all close in terms of corporate law. You should also consider Chicago as well.

Columbia and NYU do have the advantage of being in NY where many major corporations are headquartered (even if incorporated in Delaware).

Do law schools permit LLMs to take an MBA class or two? If so, that should be factored into the dynamic.
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